Discussion Shinsoo manipulation and properties

[Jack Van Burace]

The series does not make the point that the loops replenish themselves faster than he spends them. We have seen bam store shinsoo as a conscious process and even comments on it taking a long time to recharge:

Tower of God - [Season 3] Ep. 5

What do you desire? Money and wealth? Honor and pride? Authority and power? Revenge? Or something that transcends them all? Whatever you desire—it's here.

www.webtoons.com

The shinsoo loops are charged before a battle and based on the mechanics as explained in the series they can absolutely be emptied out if used enough.

Kallavan makes the point that Bam's Shinsoo is like an infinite ocean. imho his concentration before the fights is setting the loops on, adding more/bigger loops, and such. If they would be emptied, then it isn't infinite. I think Bam can consciously store more Shinsoo amidst fight, although setting the loops takes focus. Could be taking this wrong tho, but I'm trying to make sense of what Kallavan and YHS said about this skill.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 14, 2020, Original Post Date: Jun 14, 2020 ---

I still think there is a chance bam simply hasn't had the time to put into developing his physical skills. Bam's peers have potentially decades of advantage over bam, an area in which bam might not have been particularly talented and thus develops at a slower rate compared to his shinsoo. Overall his physical abilities should be largely inherited from his parents, who were peers to the 10 families. To varying degrees all noble families have strong constitutions so its not impossible bam inherited a strong constitution which is simply currently underdeveloped.

I agree in that bam seems more or less like bloosom when it comes to shinsoo. Easily picks up skill and doesn't quite understand what he is doing... I've been wondering about plus tendency thing for a while now. Minus tendency, which is common, is the loss of shinsoo control when using more bangs. Plus tendency as framed in the lore is the opposite, an increase of control as bang use increases. Bam's blessing in turn is framed as simply bam not loosing control as he uses more bangs. I wonder if perhaps SIU decided to scrap plus tendency as framed originally because it would have been too broken... As in, with the shinsoo loop he'd get more and more shinsoo control as he keeps adding shinsoo to it.

I've been wondering when shinsoo would start making bam's body like that of a ranker in the sense of its ability to take damage... All rankers seem to enjoy some benefits to their constitution in that sense, even if they aren't particularly durable. Bam recently used shinwonryu to cancel out charlie's poison... perhaps this is a first step for bam in that direction?

I think whatever Jahad used is remotely like that use Bam did with Shinworyu against poison. Maybe the first step to internal quality Shinsoo.

 

[kkck]

Kallavan makes the point that Bam's Shinsoo is like an infinite ocean. imho his concentration before the fights is setting the loops on, adding more/bigger loops, and such. If they would be emptied, then it isn't infinite. I think Bam can consciously store more Shinsoo amidst fight, although setting the loops takes focus. Could be taking this wrong tho, but I'm trying to make sense of what Kallavan and YHS said about this skill.

I think whatever Jahad used is remotely like that use Bam did with Shinworyu against poison. Maybe the first step to internal quality Shinsoo.

Ok, two important bits of context here:

YHS knows exactly what he is talking about. As he came up with the theory behind the loops but in turn was not able to pull it off because of his own inherent limitations. And as YHS explains, the loops are not infinite. Since they are simply shinsoo that was stored beforehand and the amount is however much was stored. With the loops bam basically takes a firetruck to a water balloon fight.

Kallavan has no idea of what is going on in regards to bam's shinsoo. He has no idea about the loops, how they work and at best can guess on the extent of bam's shinsoo blessing. Kallavan at best can see bam throwing shinsoo at him but he can't actually explain what is going on.

In the chapter where kallavan says that... we see what appears to be the loops around bam's orbs. And kallavan comments on bam's apparently infinite shinsoo since bam's attack does not relent. It seems likely that bam is using the vast amount of shinsoo he has stored in the loops to maintain the orb's max power for as long as he needs... Which to kallavan looks like infinite shinsoo.

 

[Shadowlord123]

I would like to comment on how unbelievably powerful the Shinwonryu technique is. Base Baam (who should be around average Ranker level more or less given the feats displayed against Charlie and Pan) could actually threaten Kallavan, someone that with the feats he has displayed it's pretty safe to assume he's within the Top 100 even if we don't have an official rank and whose defence is in all likelihood above his peers (even Ha Jinsung, a member from the Ha Family that inherently has a tough body is below him in that aspect). It definitely doesn't seem like a stretch for me to say that his firepower using that technique (not his overall level obviously, he still has ways to go before reaching it) in his base is comparable to the High Rankers inside the Top 100 (regular High Rankers can't scratch Kallavan apparently, even Ha Jinsung was barely damaging him outside the Dragon Tiger Gate).

My question is: if Shinwonryu has the firepower to make an average Ranker level Irregular able to threaten slightly someone on the Top 100, what would happen if the likes of the Family Heads and Zahard, who are already at the very top of the rankings, were to use it? Honestly, I think SIU is going to have to nerf the technique a little bit, because if not I wouldn't be surprised that Regulars inside the Top 20 could get one-shotted by them too. Then again, the portrayal thus far seems to put the Family Heads, Zahard and Urek on a whole other level than anyone else so idk.

 

[kkck]

I would like to comment on how unbelievably powerful the Shinwonryu technique is. Base Baam (who should be around average Ranker level more or less given the feats displayed against Charlie and Pan) could actually threaten Kallavan, someone that with the feats he has displayed it's pretty safe to assume he's within the Top 100 even if we don't have an official rank and whose defence is in all likelihood above his peers (even Ha Jinsung, a member from the Ha Family that inherently has a tough body is below him in that aspect). It definitely doesn't seem like a stretch for me to say that his firepower using that technique (not his overall level obviously, he still has ways to go before reaching it) in his base is comparable to the High Rankers inside the Top 100 (regular High Rankers can't scratch Kallavan apparently, even Ha Jinsung was barely damaging him outside the Dragon Tiger Gate).

My question is: if Shinwonryu has the firepower to make an average Ranker level Irregular able to threaten slightly someone on the Top 100, what would happen if the likes of the Family Heads and Zahard, who are already at the very top of the rankings, were to use it? Honestly, I think SIU is going to have to nerf the technique a little bit, because if not I wouldn't be surprised that Regulars inside the Top 20 could get one-shotted by them too. Then again, the portrayal thus far seems to put the Family Heads, Zahard and Urek on a whole other level than anyone else so idk.

Shinwonryu has always been portrayed as THAT powerful. back when it was introduced hell train bam used it to neutralize a technique from karaka... Shinwonryu substantially boosts the user's firepower though there is a good chance that what really makes the technique dangerous is its ability to cancel conventional shinsoo control. And this might have been what allowed bam to injure kallavan's arm with his floral butterfly....

As for what would happen if family heads were to use it... Odds are they are simply that broken. From the looks of it SIU simply intends for them to be THAT broken. I've made the point before that I wouldn't even be surprised if gustang could beat kallavan in a fist fight without even using shinwonryu. The great warriors are worshipped as gods by normal tower residents, it makes sense their power is off the charts by tower resident standards. So far only luslect and adori/enne might/should be somewhere in their radar power wise... And even then I don't think either of them is actually there tbh. IMO the most likely scenario is that they will simply register but won't actually be on the FH's level.

 

[Shadowlord123]

Shinwonryu has always been portrayed as THAT powerful. back when it was introduced hell train bam used it to neutralize a technique from karaka... Shinwonryu substantially boosts the user's firepower though there is a good chance that what really makes the technique dangerous is its ability to cancel conventional shinsoo control. And this might have been what allowed bam to injure kallavan's arm with his floral butterfly....

As for what would happen if family heads were to use it... Odds are they are simply that broken. From the looks of it SIU simply intends for them to be THAT broken. I've made the point before that I wouldn't even be surprised if gustang could beat kallavan in a fist fight without even using shinwonryu. The great warriors are worshipped as gods by normal tower residents, it makes sense their power is off the charts by tower resident standards. So far only luslect and adori/enne might/should be somewhere in their radar power wise... And even then I don't think either of them is actually there tbh. IMO the most likely scenario is that they will simply register but won't actually be on the FH's level.

Yeah, I also remember Baam neutralizing Dowon's shinsu control skill with it. We don't know where she stands exactly, but it's safe to assume with what we've got thus far that she's also in the higher end of the rankings.

Honestly, if the difference between their conventional techniques and Shinwonryu is more or less the same than what base Baam's showing (no reason to think otherwise as of now) I don't even want to imagine the kind of power they can muster and how broken Urek must be in order to be more or less on their level without knowing how to use it. The God of Guardians thought that he didn't even need it as he was already too powerful if I remember well. I also think that they're on a level on their own until shown otherwise. Luslec, Adori, Molic, Baek and Enne may be able to survive a skirmish and put some sort of fight, but in the end, I see a Family Head always coming out as the winner under normal circumstances and I think this makes some sort of sense with what has been established thus far. They're older than anyone else (according to Jinsung the more time it passes, the stronger one's body and power get) excluding the Guardians and maybe other people we don't know much about like Molic and Macseth, their talent exceeds everyone's by a good margin going by the showings of Baam, Data Zahard and Data Eduan compared to other really talented Regulars like Maschenny, and on top of that they have access to additional techniques like Shinwonryu that are far beyond the scope of any Regular as far as we know.

 

[kkck]

Yeah, I also remember Baam neutralizing Dowon's shinsu control skill with it. We don't know where she stands exactly, but it's safe to assume with what we've got thus far that she's also in the higher end of the rankings.

Honestly, if the difference between their conventional techniques and Shinwonryu is more or less the same than what base Baam's showing (no reason to think otherwise as of now) I don't even want to imagine the kind of power they can muster and how broken Urek must be in order to be more or less on their level without knowing how to use it. The God of Guardians thought that he didn't even need it as he was already too powerful if I remember well. I also think that they're on a level on their own until shown otherwise. Luslec, Adori, Molic, Baek and Enne may be able to survive a skirmish and put some sort of fight, but in the end, I see a Family Head always coming out as the winner under normal circumstances and I think this makes some sort of sense with what has been established thus far. They're older than anyone else (according to Jinsung the more time it passes, the stronger one's body and power get) excluding the Guardians and maybe other people we don't know much about like Molic and Macseth, their talent exceeds everyone's by a good margin going by the showings of Baam, Data Zahard and Data Eduan compared to other really talented Regulars like Maschenny, and on top of that they have access to additional techniques like Shinwonryu that are far beyond the scope of any Regular as far as we know.

The instance I mentioned is probably a greater feat though. Bam nowadays is about as skilled as a ranker and with his power boosts can hold his own against high rankers... But back when he neutralized karaka's technique he was in the hell train... At that point he was simply strong by regular standards, and probably just d class regulars at that. And yet shinwonryu pushed him to the point where he neutralized a technique from karaka, someone who is extremely strong by ranker standards and pretty damn competent by high ranker standards.

The GoG didn't think urek didn't need it, iirc urek simply didn't care about the training. Revolution is kinda about drawing out your inner powers and true self... I think there is a chance that urek would simply have not needed such training. his lack of shinwonryu is definitely interesting though, as shinwonryu is enough of a powerup to basically push you several tiers ahead of where you are at power wise. Maybe urek came up with his own unique form of shinsoo manipulation?

 

[Jack Van Burace]

You guys need to remember Akryung and the possibility that Workshop knows how to make Shinworyu not being an irregular (they made the GoG and the whole Hell Train afferall). The possibility that some regulars can perform Shinworyu exists, we saw perfectly how AA got a Fire Shinsoo that isn't his. Top 20 regulars might be able to do it as well.

 

[kkck]

You guys need to remember Akryung and the possibility that Workshop knows how to make Shinworyu not being an irregular (they made the GoG and the whole Hell Train afferall). The possibility that some regulars can perform Shinworyu exists, we saw perfectly how AA got a Fire Shinsoo that isn't his. Top 20 regulars might be able to do it as well.

I can buy the workshop being able to create beings who can use shinwonryu BUT its extremely likely that they would have severe limitations to it. Even the GoGs was restricted to the hell train. Akryun is a weirs case as there also is a possibility that he also is an irregular.

As for aguero's situation, I don't think its relevant to shinwonryu. Aguero simply picked up someone's power. His situation is probably similar to kallavan picking up the essence of bravery, evankhel or khel hellam getting their ancients or even the yeon getting their flame. Shinwonryu in turn is.... an entirety different form of shinsoo control. Bam described it as fundamentally different from what he normally does. It's at least plausible you can't just pick up an entirely different form of shinsoo control like you can pick up the EoB or flames.

 

[Jack Van Burace]

Perhaps some gadget or item that turns Shinsoo into Shinworyu?

I also think Shinworyu is a very high priority move, but not a good for everything move. Urek's lightspeed Shinsoo is likely much better as it hits the enemy even before they use Shinworyu.

 

[kkck]

I suppose that that is technically not impossible. And we know objects can get permission to use shinsoo regardless of the user having permissions or not.

But... in theory urek's shinsoo would also be vastly improved with shinwonryu. Add to that, shinwonryu isn't a slow technique or anything of the sort. It's just a different form of shinsoo manipulation which seems to be objectively better than conventional shinsoo control. There is no indication it takes time to activate (since bam became capable of using it at least) or that its in any way slower than normal shinsoo control. If anything, if shinwonryu is supposed to take after light in the same way as normal shinsoo control takes after water then it stands to reason shinwonryu is even faster.

 

[Demonspeed]

Urek must have his own technique equivalent to Shinwonryu. He had already awakened his powers before meeting Thor. Baam has more in common with the 13 Warriors while Urek seems to be from a different world, country or something(same as Phanta). My guess is that he can't use Shinwonryu because he is not the same type of Irregular but he should definitely have a technique as powerful.

Urek's fast Shinsoo is probably part of his Attributes.

 

[kkck]

Urek must have his own technique equivalent to Shinwonryu. He had already awakened his powers before meeting Thor. Baam has more in common with the 13 Warriors while Urek seems to be from a different world, country or something(same as Phanta). My guess is that he can't use Shinwonryu because he is not the same type of Irregular but he should definitely have a technique as powerful.

Urek's fast Shinsoo is probably part of his Attributes.

When was that said? I've made the point that urek maybe didn't need revolution to begin with but even that is speculation. And from what we were told urek simply didn't feel like training with the GoGs. Since shinwonryu is something only irregulars can learn there is no reason for him to not know it. If shinsoo control can take on after elements... Like normal shinsoo control looking like water and shinwonryu looking like light... It'd make sense if other forms take on after things like lightning or fire. Then again, in cases like that it'd be weird if a fire user uses with a lightning equivalent to shinwonryu. Looking at the time urek fought the thrysa.... his shinsoo does seem rather... luminous.

I suppose it's possible though my impression was that urek was simply fast because he is so absurdly powerful.

 

[Demonspeed]

When was that said? I've made the point that urek maybe didn't need revolution to begin with but even that is speculation. And from what we were told urek simply didn't feel like training with the GoGs. Since shinwonryu is something only irregulars can learn there is no reason for him to not know it. If shinsoo control can take on after elements... Like normal shinsoo control looking like water and shinwonryu looking like light... It'd make sense if other forms take on after things like lightning or fire. Then again, in cases like that it'd be weird if a fire user uses with a lightning equivalent to shinwonryu. Looking at the time urek fought the thrysa.... his shinsoo does seem rather... luminous.

I suppose it's possible though my impression was that urek was simply fast because he is so absurdly powerful.

The Rice Pot training allows to awaken your abilities as an Irregular. From what I remember Thor said Urek didn't need it and was much stronger than him.

What I said about Urek not knowing Shinwonryu is also from memory because I believe he recognized Baam using it in the FoD and thought about the FH back then.

Assuming I remember right, it heavily implies that Urek doesn't use Shinwonryu. And if he saw his peers use it and doesn't know it after all this time then something is off.

Data Urek's speed was highlighted when he dodged the mirror. I don't believe that his speed is highlighted like that just because he is powerful.

EDIT: I was right about Urek's reaction to Baam using Shinwonryu. It's in this chapter.

 

[kkck]

The Rice Pot training allows to awaken your abilities as an Irregular. From what I remember Thor said Urek didn't need it and was much stronger than him.

What I said about Urek not knowing Shinwonryu is also from memory because I believe he recognized Baam using it in the FoD and thought about the FH back then.

Assuming I remember right, it heavily implies that Urek doesn't use Shinwonryu. And if he saw his peers use it and doesn't know it after all this time then something is off.

Data Urek's speed was highlighted when he dodged the mirror. I don't believe that his speed is highlighted like that just because he is powerful.

EDIT: I was right about Urek's reaction to Baam using Shinwonryu. It's in this chapter.

Ah, you are right about urek's reaction to bam's shinwonryu, i wasn't questioning that part. my point was more about why urek didn't do revolution which IIRC was not because the guardian said urek didn't need it.

 

[Demonspeed]

Ah, you are right about urek's reaction to bam's shinwonryu, i wasn't questioning that part. my point was more about why urek didn't do revolution which IIRC was not because the guardian said urek didn't need it.

Yes you are right. Thor didn't say that he didn't need it, he said that Urek was stronger. But to me it means he didn't need it.

The Rice Pot is the place where Irregulars awaken their true powers. Happened to all the 13 Warriors and Baam. If Urek can match them then it means he already awakened his true powers. Urek being this strong without awakening doesn't really fit.

 

[Jack Van Burace]

The Rice Pot training allows to awaken your abilities as an Irregular. From what I remember Thor said Urek didn't need it and was much stronger than him.

What I said about Urek not knowing Shinwonryu is also from memory because I believe he recognized Baam using it in the FoD and thought about the FH back then.

Assuming I remember right, it heavily implies that Urek doesn't use Shinwonryu. And if he saw his peers use it and doesn't know it after all this time then something is off.

Data Urek's speed was highlighted when he dodged the mirror. I don't believe that his speed is highlighted like that just because he is powerful.

EDIT: I was right about Urek's reaction to Baam using Shinwonryu. It's in this chapter.

On the end of Zygaena's arc Urek dispatched 2 rankers with lightspeed blasts. On one second they were lined side by side, and before the examiner could complete his next step forward, they had gone off in the Horizon.

I think SIU liked themes with characters. Urek was also shown several times to appear right on time everytime. And he uses sort of carelessly his space distortion teleport thing to get from one place to the next instantly. Imho those are hints that Urek's thing is speed, and he might be the Tower's fastest person (among other secondary but also godly traits he might have at same time). Even his comment on Goseng trying to slow him down with a Lighthouse, when he said you would need an Opera to slow him for the slightest useless bit of time, fits this.

 

[kkck]

On the end of Zygaena's arc Urek dispatched 2 rankers with lightspeed blasts. On one second they were lined side by side, and before the examiner could complete his next step forward, they had gone off in the Horizon.

I think SIU liked themes with characters. Urek was also shown several times to appear right on time everytime. And he uses sort of carelessly his space distortion teleport thing to get from one place to the next instantly. Imho those are hints that Urek's thing is speed, and he might be the Tower's fastest person (among other secondary but also godly traits he might have at same time). Even his comment on Goseng trying to slow him down with a Lighthouse, when he said you would need an Opera to slow him for the slightest useless bit of time, fits this.

I would still argue those bits are simply because of how far ahead of everyone else urek is. At that point, it doesn't matter what urek did, he would have appeared godly compared to the people he was standing against. he could have simply sat there and taken the attacks and he wouldn't have flinched thus appearing a tank with no firepower. To me the most likely scenario is that urek is so overwhelmingly powerful that we simply have not seen what his real fighting style is like. And there is a good chance that urek simply excels at everything. We have seen plenty of urek but the actual information we have of his fighting style remains limited... And less specific than what we know of family heads purely from the lore.

 

[Orbs2op]

The point YHS makes is that bam's ability to control shinsoo does not decrease as the amount of bangs increases. It's not about the power, its about his control over it. Even without the loop bam can use his max amount of power while also retaining maximum control over it. With the loops, he can go beyond even his max amount of bangs... For the time being, or at least until bam gets more broken, I don't think we will see bam use highly complex techniques with the loops. It's just... not possible to use more than your max amount of shinsoo at a time. The loops apparently sustaining the orbs seems about as broken as bam gets in that regard. Though in theory bam could actually unleash more power than that by simply unleashing the loop on people. As I understand the theory here, if bam uses the loop to sustain the orb what he is doing is basically maintaining his conventional max power indefinitely as the loop is providing the orb with power rather than bam. As in, this is probably more efficient than bam powering up his orb conventionally and firing. In turn the loop itself has way more shinsoo than bam's maximum amount of bangs...

I agree with this that why I said the loops are there own thing, it's just another source of power since it purely shinsu bam can control it regardless of the power, thought I said that.

 

[kkck]

Ok, there are some bits regarding the native ones which caught my attention:

1.- The first is that when rak uses his innate powers there is light and whatnot seen. And when people see rak's power it just confuses them. Big picture, it looks like bam takes a hold of the very forces of nature, same as with the other native ones we have seen.

2.- Evankhel's flames have been said to be able to burn shinsoo itself... This is a weird power to have since her flames are shinsoo and yet they burn shinsoo in a tower where everything seems to be made out of shinsoo...

Those two things made me think there is something fundamentally alien about the way native ones manipulate shinsoo... And the light bit which was mentioned sounds pretty similar to shinwonryu. What i am thinking is that.... perhaps shinwonryu is something the workshop came up with after observing the native ones. Not saying that the native ones could use shinwonryu or that using shinwonryu would enable you to mimic native one powers though.

I also wonder what shinwonryu yeon flame would look like.... If the flame used by a lowlife like evankhel can burn shinsoo and shinwonryu itself is capable of dispersing enemy shinsoo... For some reason this sounds like a specially deadly power.

 

[Jack Van Burace]

Ok, there are some bits regarding the native ones which caught my attention:

1.- The first is that when rak uses his innate powers there is light and whatnot seen. And when people see rak's power it just confuses them. Big picture, it looks like bam takes a hold of the very forces of nature, same as with the other native ones we have seen.

2.- Evankhel's flames have been said to be able to burn shinsoo itself... This is a weird power to have since her flames are shinsoo and yet they burn shinsoo in a tower where everything seems to be made out of shinsoo...

Those two things made me think there is something fundamentally alien about the way native ones manipulate shinsoo... And the light bit which was mentioned sounds pretty similar to shinwonryu. What i am thinking is that.... perhaps shinwonryu is something the workshop came up with after observing the native ones. Not saying that the native ones could use shinwonryu or that using shinwonryu would enable you to mimic native one powers though.

I also wonder what shinwonryu yeon flame would look like.... If the flame used by a lowlife like evankhel can burn shinsoo and shinwonryu itself is capable of dispersing enemy shinsoo... For some reason this sounds like a specially deadly power.

I wouldn't say Alien, but perhaps fundamentally fundamental, as in, they are creatures of the Tower that near Administrators in rank. If Admins are responsible for the laws in a floor, the pure Native One should be the Shinheuh version of an Irregular: someone with special permissions above all other Shinheuh. And rational/sentient.

I think Shinworyu is sort of like using the fundamental laws of physics, like nuclear power rather than fire/heat/wind. By using the fundamental forces of Nature: Weak nuclear, Strong nuclear, Magnetic and Gravity, one can create all the others. And imo that's what happens with irregulars and Native Ones: they can work with the very base of Shinsoo, giving them top priority effects on Shinsoo. At least that's the impression I get, Shinsoo is a fictional element, it can work anyeay the author wants, lol.