Predictions Luslec is a 'prince' of Zahard... and 'the Boss'/'the Captain'

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Ok, you convinced me, I'm in

OK, so a few thoughts here. First of all, welcome to my madness...

Even so, I doubt that the Captain we saw in the Suspendium is the Luslec that everyone knows, or his more powerful "variant" (?)

Agreed more or less. It wouldn't be crazy to think one identity takes the lead, or is a leader type, or is the stronger or older one of them.

My theory aside, we know that there are AT LEAST 2 clones operating as 'The Captain' - I think 2 is an odd number to stop at and suspect more, at least 3 seems like a rounder number. We know that at least one of those two is really, really old - already being well-aged/experienced/adventured by the time of Genesis (same as Luslec would be, ahem).

We don't know if the clone 'scar' seen in the suspendium is the same age or even power-level (largely a function of age in the tower) as 'mole' seen back talking to Dowon long ago. He could be just as old, he could even be older, or he might simply be younger than 'mole'.

It is possible that - even this theory aside - the 'Captain' has different generations of clones that operate as one entity. They could even have a leader, perhaps the oldest, perhaps 'mole' from the Genesis flashback. We know for sure that there are younger, more recent clones like Wangnan and Karaka, the former haven't even ranked yet. I think they were either created later from leftover embryos or were kept in cryo storage but were made with the first batch (just to be thawed at a later point) or something like that. I wouldn't be surprised if Luslec and/or The Boss (first clone or clones) and/or Gustang wasn't involved in the later creation or activation of Zahard princes in Karaka and Wangnan for a greater purpose. All three would have a reason to activate more clones to be used against Zahard, and would theoretically be connected enough to know where to find them. I digress.

As such, 'Luslec' clone could be the leader of the Captain personalities, and/or just the first and oldest clone made back in the day that we see as 'mole'. Alternatively, there could be several from that period. Why not named clones such as Luslec, maybe even Quadradro (the fourth clone maybe, ehhh?) and who knows who else. Luslec is clearly not named 'Grace' after Arlen as a blood relative of hers (he did not enter the tower with her), so that name is either GIVEN to him or taken by him... but this points to his birthname not being something that is a natural birthname like just some Joe Shmoe in the tower would have with no connection to the irregulars from the onset. His other name is associated with the 'area' he was born/'born' in, Mirchea. If either Zahard or V was involved with naming the clones to work alongside them, both would be partial to Arlen, and name it after her, why not. Mirchea could just be where the RLD exists, or where the first batch of clones was made by whatever means. Finally, a formal name to differentiate each clone, such as Luslec. If 'Grace' was a name given to him, that's something that could only happen if the OG13 were involved at the time of his creation or birth.

Alternatively again, Luslec could have changed his name later in honor of Arlen, but that would mean his entire name could be an alias. If you're going to just create your own name like that, who knows if any of it is a holdover from birth. Just like Baam went from Baam to J Viole Grace - or Anakin Skywalker became Darth Vader, neither of which have anything to do with their birth names and were essentially honorary titles.

The overall point is Luslec's entire identity was either given to him and based on Arlen and the arbitrary place of his birth, or something that was later recreated by him, but is either way at some level artificial. Both echo the artificiality of clones and/or the multiple personalities associated with a singular alias.

Luslec doesn't HAVE to be a clone (though I obviously suspect he is), but there is still the possibility that there is a hierarchy of the 'Boss' all the same, regardless of if or how Luslec plays into it. The Boss hierarchy and numbers is an interesting prospect even by itself.

There's also the added element that 'scar' seems to imply even 'the Captain' (or certain elements masquerading as the Captain) isn't fully aware of what they are (as apparent clones this isn't very suprising). This is a whole can of worms in of itself. It could mean a shared memory, fractured psyche, clouded memory, etc. It could mean that not all clones have access to what happened. Can only one operate at a time? Is this like a Moon Knight scenario? It could mean if I'm right even Luslec himself suffers from this issue, maybe having something to do with his hatred towards Zahard and/or why he secludes himself and works through others, same as the Captain appears to do.

I doubt that THE Lusleccan sneak past that easy, even less in the presence of a FH (although Traumerei doesn't seem to know what happens on the other side of the wall... or in the same room where he is...)

Not so sure I agree here though. Not only as you say that Rei has a very limited perception, but Luslec does not appear to have anything that would set Rei off - particularly shinwonryu. Or if he did, he might simply chose not to use it (I'm not saying he does or doesn't, probably not, but with Akryung and GoG, and clones having powers "they should not have" who the fuck even knows). Rei did not sense Yama until he was rather close. He did not sense Baam until Baam used shinwonryu, in fact he thought he was in the suspendium a bit further away. He did not even sense Jinsung who he apparently knows, and probably has previously met. As such, there is no reason why Rei would automatically sense the Captain, Luslec or not. The Captain, 'scar' iteration here, is operating low-key so he's not exactly flexing his shinsoo to be noticed. NO ONE seems to have noticed him, and the one time he was found out it wasn't because of his power it was because his act wasn't fooling someone who had spent too much time with him. Oops.

Side note: Luslec has managed to stay hidden for thousands and thousands of years as public enemy #1, it seems like he's perfected the art of staying out of sight. Even from the Eye of Sauron (Zahard's foresight abilities). Zahard might be blind to his clones, and maybe the other irregulars are as well? If Luslec was 'just' a tower regular, I doubt this would be easily feasible, if not impossible. But as a clone, it seems to be a reasonable expectation and would explain how he's been able to stay under the radar, something even Khel could not do.

 

[zamki]

Appreciate the response. My thoughts.



And YET we see Snek now working WITH Baam. Is he controlled opposition, maybe. But he seems to think he's taking orders from a 'Boss' and not directly from Zahard (via internal monologue we see) - he seems to think they are separate entities. Also, they are working to free Baam's mentor, Jinsung, and find the missing painting piece, and network to build support for FUG... none of which would seem to be helpful to what Zahard is trying to do - stop Baam.



I don't remember him saying he was empowered by Zahard personally. But even if so perhaps his allegiances changed? We've seen that happen several times. Snek doesn't follow orders from the CC's or anything. They (Snek and Levi) seem to share a loose affiliation at this point - if at all. Snek could be a double-agent.



Not sure I'm clear - he's planning to betray... Baam (I assume that's what you mean)? Yet, Baam already has the drive to save his master he doesn't need someone pretending to help to drive him towards Jinsung. Further, recent dialogue suggests the Boss might not even trust Snek.

Although it's not out of the realm of possibility at all.



Thanks. I know you didn't read the whole thing but there are some very interesting similarities that Luslec would have and 'the Boss' has. And, as of now, a great deal of overlap in their motivations. It's also an interesting prospect that there existed princesses/princes prior to Zahard topping the tower. That opens up a realm of possibilities in how those that helped the climb might have later ended up on one end of the divide or the other - and we KNOW several 'princes' are anti-Zahard. It wouldn't be an anomaly at all to have yet another prince be working against Zahard. A prince that helped Zahard climb - as we are told Luslec did. And as that bio in the OP suggests the princesses also did.

Now I read the entire thing. But the Levy guy specifically says that He has his orders from the royal family to kill Baam and that is what He is doing during the entire chapter of Season2 Episode 322 . He also says these :

"By the grace of the King , I received the power to use spells"

& When Baam says : "You mean King Jahad ?" , He goes and say "Don't you dare his name like that".

These are not the words of someone who is not working for Zahard let alone against it .

I would post the pictures but I am too lazy for that but the above statements are to be found in chapter 322.

This guy is obviously working for and is funded by Zahard Empire .

Considering the fact that there is an obvious connection between Snek and Levy as stated by Snek himself , I just do not consider the Boss/Captain to be Luslec(more like I hope not as It would be very disappointing on my part) . In my previous post , I wanted to say that the Captain is currently working for Zahard and is planning to betray Zahard at some point . Otherwise , I think SIU needs to explain why Snek & Levy are affiliated .

I think the backbone of your theory is the assumption of the pricesseses helping the tower conquest but I am not sure if It is cannon or not .

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Now I read the entire thing.

Thank you for participating!

But the Levy guy specifically says that He has his orders from the royal family to kill Baam and that is what He is doing during the entire chapter of Season2 Episode 322 . He also says these :

"By the grace of the King , I received the power to use spells"

& When Baam says : "You mean King Jahad ?" , He goes and say "Don't you dare his name like that".

These are not the words of someone who is not working for Zahard let alone against it .

I would post the pictures but I am too lazy for that but the above statements are to be found in chapter 322.

This guy is obviously working for and is funded by Zahard Empire .

You don't have to post the pictures, I know what you're talking about. Agreed Levy is working for Zahard here - at least at the end of S2. More on that in a bit.

Considering the fact that there is an obvious connection between Snek and Levy as stated by Snek himself ,

Herein lies the problem. There are so many dissimilarities between what Levy is doing and saying and what Yool does and says that this doesn't even match up in the story. This is a matter of SIU's story (so far) being incoherent on the matter, not my theory per se. Several solutions follow.

1. That is not the same Levy that Yool refers to. This one is the simplest. There are already several Sophias, several Pauls, several Chungs, and sevaral Hanas in the story so it's conceivable that it's simply a different Levy entirely. I don't think this is necessarily the case BUT it is interesting that Levy specifically says that his "companions have already become rankers, but he himself chose to remain a regular and support Zahard forces" - as in Levy alone while everyone else went and ranked. Well, that cannot be true if Yool and Kell are his companions (as you point out Yool makes the connection that they work together, or at least were planning on doing so on this job) - as they are both regulars. Obviously this is either a different Levy or his alliances (and thus companions) changed. You can't be the odd regular out in a sea of rankers and working around strictly regulars at the same time - something does not add up. The simplest explanation is often the most likely to be correct - Occam's Razor. Counterpoint is that most of SIU's characters have unique names, and we just saw Levy towards the end of S2, only for that name to be mentioned at the beginning of S3.

2. It IS the same Levy, but:

a) his allegiance changed after facing Baam at the end of S2. This is the simplest explanation - Baam caused him to question (pun! because he's called... ah, never mind...) everything and he defected to work with the Captain and left the Z army (or was recruited - the Captain's regulars have to come from somewhere). That would explain how his companions were all rankers in S2 but in S3 that is not the case and they are now regulars - because he has different companions and works with a different crew (the new ones clearly being regulars and not rankers). Changing your outlook is not unheard of, particularly after meeting Baam. The events with Yool and Kell being revealed and capturing Baam's companions was "several months later" from the events at the end of S2 ending.

b) SIU changed his mind about something (Imort and the Bayroad tale from the bio says 'hello') in regards to Levy's character (or maybe changed his plans for Yool after the very beginning of S3, as he started off looking like a villain out to screw over Baam). Levy clearly states he's working for Zahard and his army and shows it by fighting Baam and his team - there is no question about his S2 goals for Baam. While Yool says and does the exact opposite - claiming to work for the Captain/Boss instead and working to aid Baam and also every anti-Zahard operation we've seen since S3 started. You can't be working for the Z army/Zahard and the Captain working against him, having all ranker companions and regular companions at the same time. Something changed along the way from S2 to S3.

c) Yool and Levy are simply acquaintances but do not necessarily work closely. Rather, Yool has dual allegiances. Yool is a secret agent doing work that Levy isn't aware of that is anti-empire. This would make sense in that their leaders are different, but not in that Yool thought Levy would be available for the mission to get the leverage against Baam. They either work together or they don't.

d) Yool does work closely with Levy but neither really knows what the Captain's goals are (Yool hasn't even met the Captain and is unaware of his multiple identities for one thing, that is almost certainly the case for Levy as well if he indeed works for the Captain now). The Captain has compartmentalized the regulars that he uses as resources in the regulars' area from Yool to Levy as he sees fit. Yool also isn't aware of why they'd be helping an irregular. But this one makes the least sense because Yool cites his allegiance to the Captain, whereas Levy cites his as Zahard/the Zahard army. It also does not explain why Levy would claim to have ranker companions when Yool and Kell clearly are not that. Levy either works for Zahard or he doesn't.

e) The Captain killed or sidelined Levy (Yool says he's a no-show, MIA, and he can't reach him). The Captain needs flunkies as regulars that show loyalty to him and his cause, which doing this job goes against Zahard's orders (previous ones might have been vague as to who they benefit - just following orders!). That rules Levy out, even if he worked with Yool in the past before. Levy could have been working for what he thought was the Z army while Yool knew better that the orders they carried out previously were to benefit the Captain's anti-Zahard agenda (Levy thinking he's helping the empire instead). Compartmentalization of intelligence is important when planning a coup, as are useful idiots.

f) Levy himself is/was a double-agent still loyal Zahard, pretending to help the Captain and the Captain found out and removed him from the job (probably via death). Yool thought he was trustworthy, but doesn't know why he didn't show the day of the job. The Captain clearly keeps Yool in the dark about things. This explains why Levy is a no-show, and the Captain says 'eh, don't worry about him... focus on the job' (paraphrasing).

g) Some other explanation.

If I had to guess it is either option 1. or 2a (maybe 2e or 2f). Nothing else squares with the information that we do have on their relationship, and 1. and 2a. explain it easily enough.

What is *beyond* clear is that the Levy in S2 and the Yool in S3 have entirely different leaders, motivators, and actions. They are certainly not working towards the same goal or for the same organization, and Yool isn't working for Zahard like Levy at least once was:

- Levy claims to work for the Z army and thus Zahard while Yool claims loyalty to the Boss. If you are working for Zahard and his orders you would say that, you wouldn't say you are loyal to something else or another entity. Everyone that's shown to be loyal to Zahard speaks as though they are. Everyone that's shown loyal to another agenda speaks as though they are. This one should be enough to prove they aren't working towards the same ends, but to continue...

- Levy wants to stop Baam and his companions, and fights them for this purpose. Speaking to the above this is exactly what you would expect from a Zahard loyalist. Like anyone else in the army claiming Zahard loyalty fighting to stop Baam and the people he's with (at that time mostly regs). OTOH, Yool *helps* Baam by orders of his entirely different master, 'The Boss'. His knowledge and ship are instrumental at the Cage and later the Nest. He point blank says his orders are to help Baam, which is a 180 from Levy's orders in S2.

- The Captain/Boss is interested in getting Jinsung freed (or something associated with Jinsung's location in the Nest at least). This is Yool's stated goal to Baam, and Baam wouldn't know how to save his master otherwise. He then helps with the events at the Cage before they even travel to the Nest, something that's an important FUG affair, not for Zahard's benefit at all. I can already hear you thinking to say 'well, that was to lure Baam to the Nest to capture him!' - well, that doesn't work either. We know the Captain does not want Baam captured:

i) If it were Yool's responsibility to get Baam to the Nest for the purpose of capturing him, that mission was accomplished long ago. Instead, Yool coordinated with Baam's team, FUG included, for multiple secretive attacks throughout the FUG assault on 52F. Yool KEPT fighting alongside and with Baam's forces all the way to the suspendium itself, entered it, and still killed a member loyal to Zahard in the crystal structure. There's no need to pretend once Baam is there and exposed in the open, and he could have betrayed him at any time putting Baam at risk of being captured if that was the plan all along. The arc is literally ending with no sign of either the Captain or Yool (there separately) screwing over Baam, but instead the opposite, appearing to be in his corner here.

ii) We know as a matter of fact that the Boss/Captain is associated with the one in the Flashbacks (they both are clones as the "we" that is the Boss). That version very much want's Baam alive and is anti-Zahard. He even says Zahard changed and that Baam will lead a war against Zahard and two of the strongest FUG figures should help Baam specifically lol. He's networking with Zahard's biggest enemies and planning against Zahard from way back then, and fast-forward to present day one of the Boss clones is in the crystal, killing Baam's enemies there? Yeah, he's clearly not against Baam, and he's clearly not for Zahard. Also, the Boss showed up on his own, and even Yool seems unaware of this fact. If the Boss' goal was Baam, he wouldn't have to slink around he could be openly against him once the fighting broke out. He could have tried stopping him in the crystal. He wouldn't have to kill his way into LPB forces, allied to Zahard. Baam is in the palm of Rei, tapped by Zahard personally to deal with Baam, at the time of this writing. At what point does the 'betrayal' come if that was the plan of the Captain? His goals were achieved when Baam was air-lifted to the first Wall.

If Yool is working for the Captain's goals and the Captain is anti-Zahard and pro-Baam (clearly seen in FB and in current actions), the Yool can in no way be working for Zahard or against Baam, and this is exactly what we see playing out since he offered to work with Baam way back in early S3.

Further, how exactly did Yool figure out Baam's location before the events at the Cage? That was a FUG operation, and a very specific and secretive one at that (not even FUG as a whole knew what Baam and Karaka were planning). Something Luslec would have the knowledge of (Luslec is favoring Baam's growth and consolidation of FUG of course, which is what is playing out at that point in time that Yool approaches Baam), not Zahard. Yet, Yool rides right up to Baam and companions in their quest to get DingDong to win over Yama, the FUG Slayer and at a hidden FUG stronghold at that. If Zahard knew Baam's precise location (and at the exact moment in time) he could have just simply sent his 2 squadrons there to get him (they have warp capabilities), when he's got no backup or army to fight with him, and shit would be done and over with. He wouldn't need an elaborate plan to help Baam get stronger, get allies, plan ahead to assault the Nest, and use Jinsung as bait to get Baam to come to them if they knew Baam's location this whole time lol. That is like those old James Bond movies where the big bad could just kill Bond at any time and the movie would be over, but instead puts him in some elaborate, time-consuming trap and then leaves the scene where Bond clearly has time to plan and escape. Makes little sense.

That Yool was able to precisely pinpoint Baam (someone out of reach of Zahard's future-sensing abilities it would seem) when clearly no one else in the entire Z army can speaks to someone with internal knowledge of FUG operations: hidden locales and bases, exact timing, plans of procedure, etc

***TLDR? It's inarguable that S2 Levy and S3 Yool are anywhere near being on the same page or working for the same agenda or even leader (at least between S2 and S3 time-skip).

I just do not consider the Boss/Captain to be Luslec(more like I hope not as It would be very disappointing on my part) .

You're entitled to your opinion of course, but why? Isn't that a twist? Isn't part of the fun that we expect loyalties to shift or double-agents and the like? Surprise revelations like Tobi really being Obito or whatever?

In my previous post , I wanted to say that the Captain is currently working for Zahard and is planning to betray Zahard at some point .

So you want a 'twist' betrayal reveal after all??

I mean, he's been verbally against Zahard and working with FUG components since the time of Genesis, unknown tens of thousands of years ago. He's now aiding Baam in his endeavors. I wouldn't say "planning" is the correct word. He has BEEN working against Zahard. Now, it's possible Zahard does not know this, but there is no future plans of betraying as they have been in the works for quite some time.

What if we're both right? What if Luslec is the Captain, who works for Zahard right under his nose (while remotely operating FUG lol)? Keep your friends close and your enemies closer... It wouldn't be unheard of to have the King betrayed by someone in his own court, who has secretly amassed an army or has plans long in the making to depose the king. If Luslec was working out of 133F that would be quite the feat.

I can't see the Captain working for Zahard in any event. Zahard does not want his clones known about, he'd rather see them dead or removed from view permanently. It is said they are "his greatest shame." Why would he keep them around? It is also said that "they have powers they should not have" (the princes/clones)... I can't see Zahard willingly keeping his greatest shames around, actively working for him, and sharing his powers that they shouldn't have but wanting to keep those very powers as his own. Does not compute.

Further, why if they have a boss they report to (Zahard) would they call themselves The Boss? THE Boss. At best they'd be the assistant bosses lol. 'Boss' implies the height of their organization, and 'the' is added for the emphasis that no one else is in that position.

I suppose they could be the Boss of an organization in the empire (such as RED or some special forces unit) under Zahard (but not loyal? lol), but still. The Captain claims zero loyalty to Zahard, but rather the opposite. RED agents seem to identify as RED agents, and again work for Zahard not against him. Levy simply says he's loyal to Zahard and the Z army, not any named organization. Yool is verbally loyal to the Captain, but knows little about him or what makes him tick, or what the organization is really even about.

Otherwise , I think SIU needs to explain why Snek & Levy are affiliated .

Agreed, but I offer some thoughts on the matter above. Any rebuttals or opinions on what exactly is going on here? There's some obvious disconnects and it's impossible to say that it looks like Yool and Levy are on the same page, both shilling for Zahard.

At this point in the story I don't think it's fair to say that the theory falls apart because Levy and Yool know each other and might work together in some fashion (or had past-tense), therefor Levy also has been working for the Captain but not really because he says Zahard, thus the Captain works for Zahard and against Baam - when the entire story shows something that contradicts that assertion. Again, so far. If that changes of course that's a huge crack in the theory,

I think the backbone of your theory is the assumption of the pricesseses helping the tower conquest

Not at all. And it isn't an assumption at all (see below).

I merely use it as *yet another* piece of evidence to date the prince program (cloning, genetic shenanigans) as very old in the tower, with a similar function as what the princesses did - helping out. The theory does not entirely or even mostly hinge on this aspect of the tower history.

If you completely remove the princesses (and their stated functions, and the apparent ancient age of the program's inception) from the equation, nothing changes.

Why? Because it is firmly established by 'mole' Captain character that there was already an ancient clone, well-worn and well-adventured (again, a reference to the climb) all the way back in the time of Genesis. It is established he is already very old at the end of the period where empire is established (where princesses would have been being used).

Even IF the princess program came much later (it didn't), that still doesn't mean the prince program could not have preceded it by quite some time, into the ancient periods, which the Captain's appearance in the FB attests to.

In fact, the prince program was somewhat of a flop, a great blight on the irregulars and a "shame" to Zahard so much so that they'd want to put it past them, instead leaning into the princess program, which is ongoing to this date. That fact alone speaks to the implication that the prince program actually came first, flopped or went up in flames (RLD burned down I think I remember reading), and instead the princess program was enacted. Remember, the entire point of the princess program is to (supposedly) produce an heir, a 'prince'. It seems that was already tried in an attempt to create princes directly. Tried and scrapped.

but I am not sure if It is cannon or not .

It very much is.

It's literally the third bio SIU ever gave us (the one on Zahard) lol:

"Zahard conquered the Tower with the 10 families, and gained control of the 134 floors from the floor Guardians. (Some floors were conquered by Zahard's daughters.)"

Zahard's daughters = princesses as we well know, they are referred to both ways, and specifically considered his daughters.

This is still canon and nothing has changed it or even challenged it in the slightest. I know it is said that SIU can change the bios, but this is a very important point from a very important bio, almost the most important character in the whole story. It's the third line about him for fucks sake. In any event, it's canon until proven otherwise, but this isn't some side note about how a Slayer traveled an obscure road with a companion that might or might not have been there along for the ride on his way to ranking (Imort).

It is quite clear that to gain control of some floors, to "conquer" them, princesses were used. There's no getting around this.

The only question is was this done on the way up, or retroactively? Probably the later. That would mean they got to the top, Zahard became king, but it took a while to wrestle control over each floor to bring it into empire directly.

Keep in mind (the irregular adventurers) they didn't 'conquer' their way up the tower, completely controlling the floors in doing so, they merely passed admin tests and fought giant creatures in an extended adventure - the focus was on getting a pass to the next floor, not bending the will of the floor residents/rulers/leaders/and even the admin. It is also important to note this was not an easy task, and they relied on help - from the Native Ones to whatever Luslec is and any other companions (of unknown races) they might have picked up. If help was not in ready supply, I suggest an attempt was made to MAKE help. We know that Zahard used the help of his daughters, why not his sons?

It is said once they got to the current top they stopped and Zahard became king, preventing further expansion up the tower.

In any event, Zahard being made king didn't automatically mean everyone recognized him as such. Some floors had to be conquered after the fact. The princesses did that. Zahard relied on genetic experiments as 'daughters' to do the heavy lifting. This program (the princesses) was in effect before the empire was firmly established, meaning it is very old.

So, we have absolute precedent of an ancient genetic experiments where Zahard specifically used these CREATIONS to help his efforts. We also have precedent that the adventurers relied on help to climb the tower to begin with. All I'm doing is combining these two well-known facts to suggest that Zahard might have also started a program around the same time, ancient, to rely on heavy lifting from 'sons' (as princes) in climbing the tower, same as he did by his 'daughters' (princesses) to conquer the floors. It's the exact same concept and loosely the same period in tower history.

 

[zamki]

Thank you for participating!



You don't have to post the pictures, I know what you're talking about. Agreed Levy is working for Zahard here - at least at the end of S2. More on that in a bit.




Herein lies the problem. There are so many dissimilarities between what Levy is doing and saying and what Yool does and says that this doesn't even match up in the story. This is a matter of SIU's story (so far) being incoherent on the matter, not my theory per se. Several solutions follow.

1. That is not the same Levy that Yool refers to. This one is the simplest. There are already several Sophias, several Pauls, several Chungs, and sevaral Hanas in the story so it's conceivable that it's simply a different Levy entirely. I don't think this is necessarily the case BUT it is interesting that Levy specifically says that his "companions have already become rankers, but he himself chose to remain a regular and support Zahard forces" - as in Levy alone while everyone else went and ranked. Well, that cannot be true if Yool and Kell are his companions (as you point out Yool makes the connection that they work together, or at least were planning on doing so on this job) - as they are both regulars. Obviously this is either a different Levy or his alliances (and thus companions) changed. You can't be the odd regular out in a sea of rankers and working around strictly regulars at the same time - something does not add up. The simplest explanation is often the most likely to be correct - Occam's Razor. Counterpoint is that most of SIU's characters have unique names, and we just saw Levy towards the end of S2, only for that name to be mentioned at the beginning of S3.

2. It IS the same Levy, but:

a) his allegiance changed after facing Baam at the end of S2. This is the simplest explanation - Baam caused him to question (pun! because he's called... ah, never mind...) everything and he defected to work with the Captain and left the Z army (or was recruited - the Captain's regulars have to come from somewhere). That would explain how his companions were all rankers in S2 but in S3 that is not the case and they are now regulars - because he has different companions and works with a different crew (the new ones clearly being regulars and not rankers). Changing your outlook is not unheard of, particularly after meeting Baam. The events with Yool and Kell being revealed and capturing Baam's companions was "several months later" from the events at the end of S2 ending.

b) SIU changed his mind about something (Imort and the Bayroad tale from the bio says 'hello') in regards to Levy's character (or maybe changed his plans for Yool after the very beginning of S3, as he started off looking like a villain out to screw over Baam). Levy clearly states he's working for Zahard and his army and shows it by fighting Baam and his team - there is no question about his S2 goals for Baam. While Yool says and does the exact opposite - claiming to work for the Captain/Boss instead and working to aid Baam and also every anti-Zahard operation we've seen since S3 started. You can't be working for the Z army/Zahard and the Captain working against him, having all ranker companions and regular companions at the same time. Something changed along the way from S2 to S3.

c) Yool and Levy are simply acquaintances but do not necessarily work closely. Rather, Yool has dual allegiances. Yool is a secret agent doing work that Levy isn't aware of that is anti-empire. This would make sense in that their leaders are different, but not in that Yool thought Levy would be available for the mission to get the leverage against Baam. They either work together or they don't.

d) Yool does work closely with Levy but neither really knows what the Captain's goals are (Yool hasn't even met the Captain and is unaware of his multiple identities for one thing, that is almost certainly the case for Levy as well if he indeed works for the Captain now). The Captain has compartmentalized the regulars that he uses as resources in the regulars' area from Yool to Levy as he sees fit. Yool also isn't aware of why they'd be helping an irregular. But this one makes the least sense because Yool cites his allegiance to the Captain, whereas Levy cites his as Zahard/the Zahard army. It also does not explain why Levy would claim to have ranker companions when Yool and Kell clearly are not that. Levy either works for Zahard or he doesn't.

e) The Captain killed or sidelined Levy (Yool says he's a no-show, MIA, and he can't reach him). The Captain needs flunkies as regulars that show loyalty to him and his cause, which doing this job goes against Zahard's orders (previous ones might have been vague as to who they benefit - just following orders!). That rules Levy out, even if he worked with Yool in the past before. Levy could have been working for what he thought was the Z army while Yool knew better that the orders they carried out previously were to benefit the Captain's anti-Zahard agenda (Levy thinking he's helping the empire instead). Compartmentalization of intelligence is important when planning a coup, as are useful idiots.

f) Levy himself is/was a double-agent still loyal Zahard, pretending to help the Captain and the Captain found out and removed him from the job (probably via death). Yool thought he was trustworthy, but doesn't know why he didn't show the day of the job. The Captain clearly keeps Yool in the dark about things. This explains why Levy is a no-show, and the Captain says 'eh, don't worry about him... focus on the job' (paraphrasing).

g) Some other explanation.

If I had to guess it is either option 1. or 2a (maybe 2e or 2f). Nothing else squares with the information that we do have on their relationship, and 1. and 2a. explain it easily enough.

What is *beyond* clear is that the Levy in S2 and the Yool in S3 have entirely different leaders, motivators, and actions. They are certainly not working towards the same goal or for the same organization, and Yool isn't working for Zahard like Levy at least once was:

- Levy claims to work for the Z army and thus Zahard while Yool claims loyalty to the Boss. If you are working for Zahard and his orders you would say that, you wouldn't say you are loyal to something else or another entity. Everyone that's shown to be loyal to Zahard speaks as though they are. Everyone that's shown loyal to another agenda speaks as though they are. This one should be enough to prove they aren't working towards the same ends, but to continue...

- Levy wants to stop Baam and his companions, and fights them for this purpose. Speaking to the above this is exactly what you would expect from a Zahard loyalist. Like anyone else in the army claiming Zahard loyalty fighting to stop Baam and the people he's with (at that time mostly regs). OTOH, Yool *helps* Baam by orders of his entirely different master, 'The Boss'. His knowledge and ship are instrumental at the Cage and later the Nest. He point blank says his orders are to help Baam, which is a 180 from Levy's orders in S2.

- The Captain/Boss is interested in getting Jinsung freed (or something associated with Jinsung's location in the Nest at least). This is Yool's stated goal to Baam, and Baam wouldn't know how to save his master otherwise. He then helps with the events at the Cage before they even travel to the Nest, something that's an important FUG affair, not for Zahard's benefit at all. I can already hear you thinking to say 'well, that was to lure Baam to the Nest to capture him!' - well, that doesn't work either. We know the Captain does not want Baam captured:

i) If it were Yool's responsibility to get Baam to the Nest for the purpose of capturing him, that mission was accomplished long ago. Instead, Yool coordinated with Baam's team, FUG included, for multiple secretive attacks throughout the FUG assault on 52F. Yool KEPT fighting alongside and with Baam's forces all the way to the suspendium itself, entered it, and still killed a member loyal to Zahard in the crystal structure. There's no need to pretend once Baam is there and exposed in the open, and he could have betrayed him at any time putting Baam at risk of being captured if that was the plan all along. The arc is literally ending with no sign of either the Captain or Yool (there separately) screwing over Baam, but instead the opposite, appearing to be in his corner here.

ii) We know as a matter of fact that the Boss/Captain is associated with the one in the Flashbacks (they both are clones as the "we" that is the Boss). That version very much want's Baam alive and is anti-Zahard. He even says Zahard changed and that Baam will lead a war against Zahard and two of the strongest FUG figures should help Baam specifically lol. He's networking with Zahard's biggest enemies and planning against Zahard from way back then, and fast-forward to present day one of the Boss clones is in the crystal, killing Baam's enemies there? Yeah, he's clearly not against Baam, and he's clearly not for Zahard. Also, the Boss showed up on his own, and even Yool seems unaware of this fact. If the Boss' goal was Baam, he wouldn't have to slink around he could be openly against him once the fighting broke out. He could have tried stopping him in the crystal. He wouldn't have to kill his way into LPB forces, allied to Zahard. Baam is in the palm of Rei, tapped by Zahard personally to deal with Baam, at the time of this writing. At what point does the 'betrayal' come if that was the plan of the Captain? His goals were achieved when Baam was air-lifted to the first Wall.

If Yool is working for the Captain's goals and the Captain is anti-Zahard and pro-Baam (clearly seen in FB and in current actions), the Yool can in no way be working for Zahard or against Baam, and this is exactly what we see playing out since he offered to work with Baam way back in early S3.

Further, how exactly did Yool figure out Baam's location before the events at the Cage? That was a FUG operation, and a very specific and secretive one at that (not even FUG as a whole knew what Baam and Karaka were planning). Something Luslec would have the knowledge of (Luslec is favoring Baam's growth and consolidation of FUG of course, which is what is playing out at that point in time that Yool approaches Baam), not Zahard. Yet, Yool rides right up to Baam and companions in their quest to get DingDong to win over Yama, the FUG Slayer and at a hidden FUG stronghold at that. If Zahard knew Baam's precise location (and at the exact moment in time) he could have just simply sent his 2 squadrons there to get him (they have warp capabilities), when he's got no backup or army to fight with him, and shit would be done and over with. He wouldn't need an elaborate plan to help Baam get stronger, get allies, plan ahead to assault the Nest, and use Jinsung as bait to get Baam to come to them if they knew Baam's location this whole time lol. That is like those old James Bond movies where the big bad could just kill Bond at any time and the movie would be over, but instead puts him in some elaborate, time-consuming trap and then leaves the scene where Bond clearly has time to plan and escape. Makes little sense.

That Yool was able to precisely pinpoint Baam (someone out of reach of Zahard's future-sensing abilities it would seem) when clearly no one else in the entire Z army can speaks to someone with internal knowledge of FUG operations: hidden locales and bases, exact timing, plans of procedure, etc

***TLDR? It's inarguable that S2 Levy and S3 Yool are anywhere near being on the same page or working for the same agenda or even leader (at least between S2 and S3 time-skip).



You're entitled to your opinion of course, but why? Isn't that a twist? Isn't part of the fun that we expect loyalties to shift or double-agents and the like? Surprise revelations like Tobi really being Obito or whatever?



So you want a 'twist' betrayal reveal after all??

I mean, he's been verbally against Zahard and working with FUG components since the time of Genesis, unknown tens of thousands of years ago. He's now aiding Baam in his endeavors. I wouldn't say "planning" is the correct word. He has BEEN working against Zahard. Now, it's possible Zahard does not know this, but there is no future plans of betraying as they have been in the works for quite some time.

What if we're both right? What if Luslec is the Captain, who works for Zahard right under his nose (while remotely operating FUG lol)? Keep your friends close and your enemies closer... It wouldn't be unheard of to have the King betrayed by someone in his own court, who has secretly amassed an army or has plans long in the making to depose the king. If Luslec was working out of 133F that would be quite the feat.

I can't see the Captain working for Zahard in any event. Zahard does not want his clones known about, he'd rather see them dead or removed from view permanently. It is said they are "his greatest shame." Why would he keep them around? It is also said that "they have powers they should not have" (the princes/clones)... I can't see Zahard willingly keeping his greatest shames around, actively working for him, and sharing his powers that they shouldn't have but wanting to keep those very powers as his own. Does not compute.

Further, why if they have a boss they report to (Zahard) would they call themselves The Boss? THE Boss. At best they'd be the assistant bosses lol. 'Boss' implies the height of their organization, and 'the' is added for the emphasis that no one else is in that position.

I suppose they could be the Boss of an organization in the empire (such as RED or some special forces unit) under Zahard (but not loyal? lol), but still. The Captain claims zero loyalty to Zahard, but rather the opposite. RED agents seem to identify as RED agents, and again work for Zahard not against him. Levy simply says he's loyal to Zahard and the Z army, not any named organization. Yool is verbally loyal to the Captain, but knows little about him or what makes him tick, or what the organization is really even about.



Agreed, but I offer some thoughts on the matter above. Any rebuttals or opinions on what exactly is going on here? There's some obvious disconnects and it's impossible to say that it looks like Yool and Levy are on the same page, both shilling for Zahard.

At this point in the story I don't think it's fair to say that the theory falls apart because Levy and Yool know each other and might work together in some fashion (or had past-tense), therefor Levy also has been working for the Captain but not really because he says Zahard, thus the Captain works for Zahard and against Baam - when the entire story shows something that contradicts that assertion. Again, so far. If that changes of course that's a huge crack in the theory,



Not at all. And it isn't an assumption at all (see below).

I merely use it as *yet another* piece of evidence to date the prince program (cloning, genetic shenanigans) as very old in the tower, with a similar function as what the princesses did - helping out. The theory does not entirely or even mostly hinge on this aspect of the tower history.

If you completely remove the princesses (and their stated functions, and the apparent ancient age of the program's inception) from the equation, nothing changes.

Why? Because it is firmly established by 'mole' Captain character that there was already an ancient clone, well-worn and well-adventured (again, a reference to the climb) all the way back in the time of Genesis. It is established he is already very old at the end of the period where empire is established (where princesses would have been being used).

Even IF the princess program came much later (it didn't), that still doesn't mean the prince program could not have preceded it by quite some time, into the ancient periods, which the Captain's appearance in the FB attests to.

In fact, the prince program was somewhat of a flop, a great blight on the irregulars and a "shame" to Zahard so much so that they'd want to put it past them, instead leaning into the princess program, which is ongoing to this date. That fact alone speaks to the implication that the prince program actually came first, flopped or went up in flames (RLD burned down I think I remember reading), and instead the princess program was enacted. Remember, the entire point of the princess program is to (supposedly) produce an heir, a 'prince'. It seems that was already tried in an attempt to create princes directly. Tried and scrapped.



It very much is.

It's literally the third bio SIU ever gave us (the one on Zahard) lol:

"Zahard conquered the Tower with the 10 families, and gained control of the 134 floors from the floor Guardians. (Some floors were conquered by Zahard's daughters.)"

Zahard's daughters = princesses as we well know, they are referred to both ways, and specifically considered his daughters.

This is still canon and nothing has changed it or even challenged it in the slightest. I know it is said that SIU can change the bios, but this is a very important point from a very important bio, almost the most important character in the whole story. It's the third line about him for fucks sake. In any event, it's canon until proven otherwise, but this isn't some side note about how a Slayer traveled an obscure road with a companion that might or might not have been there along for the ride on his way to ranking (Imort).

It is quite clear that to gain control of some floors, to "conquer" them, princesses were used. There's no getting around this.

The only question is was this done on the way up, or retroactively? Probably the later. That would mean they got to the top, Zahard became king, but it took a while to wrestle control over each floor to bring it into empire directly.

Keep in mind (the irregular adventurers) they didn't 'conquer' their way up the tower, completely controlling the floors in doing so, they merely passed admin tests and fought giant creatures in an extended adventure - the focus was on getting a pass to the next floor, not bending the will of the floor residents/rulers/leaders/and even the admin. It is also important to note this was not an easy task, and they relied on help - from the Native Ones to whatever Luslec is and any other companions (of unknown races) they might have picked up. If help was not in ready supply, I suggest an attempt was made to MAKE help. We know that Zahard used the help of his daughters, why not his sons?

It is said once they got to the current top they stopped and Zahard became king, preventing further expansion up the tower.

In any event, Zahard being made king didn't automatically mean everyone recognized him as such. Some floors had to be conquered after the fact. The princesses did that. Zahard relied on genetic experiments as 'daughters' to do the heavy lifting. This program (the princesses) was in effect before the empire was firmly established, meaning it is very old.

So, we have absolute precedent of an ancient genetic experiments where Zahard specifically used these CREATIONS to help his efforts. We also have precedent that the adventurers relied on help to climb the tower to begin with. All I'm doing is combining these two well-known facts to suggest that Zahard might have also started a program around the same time, ancient, to rely on heavy lifting from 'sons' (as princes) in climbing the tower, same as he did by his 'daughters' (princesses) to conquer the floors. It's the exact same concept and loosely the same period in tower history.

I read the entire thing again , was a good and fun read .

I agree with most of your points . And It might actually be that Luslec is the Captain.

But ,

At the beginning if the S3 Yool is speaking with the Captain and here the captain speaks of Viole's accomplishment of getting alive out of a fight with a Ranker could be a load of crap which I believe Luslec would be well aware of it being real considering his trust and relationship with Hwa Ryun .

Even there , Yool is actually speaking against Viole , blaming Levy that He f*cked it up , He is the wrong guy be make friends with , He will teach him a lesson etc etc.

Here He is still against Viole and Captain's directions are against Baam as well. However , after seeing that the rumors are true , then He immediately 'switches' sides and work along with Viole .

This is in my opinion enough of an indication for the Captain not be Luslec .

The thing that confuses me is that there are 'more than one' Captains. And even Yool is aware of it , kind of .

Thus , I cannot rule out Luslec is one of the Captains and Levy & Yool's Captain is someone else who has slightly different opinions with Luslec and after seeing the rumors being true , His next moves are in complete alignment with Luslec's.


Or Luslec is not one person and is the total of more than one person with different personalities and agendas who are called the Captains which I highly doubt.

In conclusion, I am trying to say that the Captain speaking with Yool at the beginning of S3 probably told Yool to test him if He is the real deal or not and If He is , then told him to cooperate.The Captain knows the prophecy but He does not know that Viole is the child in the prophecy so He tests him. But Luslec already knows Viole is Arlene's son and even gives him the Grace name . That is why I don't think Luslec is the Captain but as i said previously He might be one of the Captains if they are more than one.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

I read the entire thing again , was a good and fun read .

I agree with most of your points . And It might actually be that Luslec is the Captain.

At the beginning if the S3 Yool is speaking with the Captain and here the captain speaks of Viole's accomplishment of getting alive out of a fight with a Ranker could be a load of crap which I believe Luslec would be well aware of it being real considering his trust and relationship with Hwa Ryun .

Yes, agreed this dialogue doesn't seem to square with Luslec... BUT, it also doesn't seem to square with what we know of the Captain everywhere else but this singular chapter reference, his 'intro' if you will. Of course, it's also the chapter indicating that Yool works with Levy which we know makes little sense. Which is currently inexplicable and doesn't fit with what they are up to elsewhere. Indicating things have changed since then. In SIU's mind or the story itself behind the scenes or both.

Even there , Yool is actually speaking against Viole , blaming Levy that He f*cked it up , He is the wrong guy be make friends with , He will teach him a lesson etc etc.

I'm not sure if you are saying that Yool is blaming Levy for fucking it up at the last station in S2, but my takeaway is he's fucking up THIS job (start of S3) because he's MIA and should be on the job running things like he asked to do (again, the context is this job specifically). I don't get any feeling Yool is upset about his performance months back at LS in S2; that seems like a separate issue and why would Yool just now be airing his concerns about that when the focus is to get hostages to use against Baam?

Here He is still against Viole and Captain's directions are against Baam as well. However , after seeing that the rumors are true , then He immediately 'switches' sides and work along with Viole .

You must then be referencing a few chapters later, when he approached Baam and tried to fight him, only to be brushed aside like nothing by Baam. This action doesn't seem to be his (the Captain's) orders at all, but Yool acting independent because he can't believe what he's been told about Baam's strength. If Baam can't beat him, he can't beat rankers, and he's certainly not qualified to go to the Wall or rescue Jinsung or worth being leveraged for whatever they want. I don't see this as a problem at all. Whether the Captain is Luslec or not, he probably knows that if Baam is powerful enough then he'll win over Yool easily, and if not he's a waste of time entirely. Even if Captain = Luslec, he could simply be BS'ing his subordinates or confident that Baam would have to win over Yool due to his personality (Yool says the Captain is trustworthy and would never lie but also doesn't seem to believe his intel on Baam?). Or, it could simply be Yool needing to see proof for himself and going off script, deciding to take it on himself to test Baam, something not instructed to do.

I've said it before I'll say it again though - Luslec's MO is completely to throw Baam in the deep end in a prove yourself, sink-or-swim way. In spite of knowing who Baam really is, if Baam cannot do the simple task of beat FUG randos then he's not qualified to be the child of prophecy. Gustang, who also knows the prophecy and who Baam is, ALSO speaks this way to and about Baam - he tells him to his face that's who he believes Baam is and yet that he needs to see if Baam truly lives up to that potential (by "taking the thorn and changing the tower" i.e., killing Zahard). That is to say even those that believe in Baam and the prophecy still want Baam to prove his capabilities all the same. Again, if he can't do these simple things (like win over a regular) then he isn't who they've been waiting for. The 'messiah' figure proving their worth is a trope in any fashion - think how Paul had to win over the Fremen in Dune. I digress again.

We also know through Jinsung that Luslec wants Baam to shine on his own. He wants Baam to consolidate and win over FUG. If he can't do that, he's not worthy to go after Zahard and he will need all of FUG as an army because he can't solo the task. That is why HWR (for one of many instances) insists Baam win over an elder if he wants her help with Jinsung. Luslec is not opposed to putting Baam in harms way for him to fight his way out, winning over adversaries and growing stronger in the process. It's a tough love kind of approach, which is also a trope - the master nearly killing the student or giving him constant tasks that are near-fatal that force growth and strength. Baam has been fighting FUG just as much if not more than any other adversary in the tower so far, and look what's happening - anyone put in Baam's path is won over and FUG more and more rallies around Baam, which is what Luslec wants. Now, Yool certainly isn't in FUG proper (maybe a spin-off if Captain is who I think he is), but it's the exact same MO as Luslec uses, so if the Captain pitted Yool against Baam while not being concerned for the outcome and knowing it in advance (or else it's a waste of time) then maybe that's simply the best way to get Yool to be a true believer and bend the knew to Baam.

Luslec is testing Baam all the way up to the Nest, with giving him hoops to jump through like winning over an Elder, told to Baam by HWR at Luslec's orders. He will likely continue to test Baam until Baam has all the thorn or does something spectacular, possibly all the way up to facing Zahard. That is to say, it's not unlike Luslec to test Baam even though he knows who he is, and he shows no signs of stopping this. The tests also function as a way of hardening Baam and getting FUG's attention that Baam is worth following.

This is in my opinion enough of an indication for the Captain not be Luslec .

IMO, that's a premature takeaway, particularly when we must consider the Captain's other actions, and that there are more than one with varying personalities all the same which seem to have a different opinion on Baam.

The thing that confuses me is that there are 'more than one' Captains. And even Yool is aware of it , kind of .

Kind of, but not really. He suspects he sounds different at a later point, but doesn't quite piece what that means together

Yool doesn't seem like the brightest bulb, and we know this means that Yool doesn't even know the Captain at all (hasn't met him), or his motivations, but is simply tasked to work for this mysterious person he thinks is an individual. The Captain keeps Yool in the dark from the multiple personalities, to when they changed over, to showing up independent of him at the Nest, to who knows what else - it wouldn't be unexpected that he pretends to not know a ton about Baam to Yool as well.

Thus , I cannot rule out Luslec is one of the Captains and Levy & Yool's Captain is someone else who has slightly different opinions with Luslec and after seeing the rumors being true , His next moves are in complete alignment with Luslec's.

S3E1 is an oddball out, no doubt about it - from the Levy reference to the dialogue with the Captain. I can think of several possibilities:

1. SIU simply changed his mind about which direction he was going with 'the Captain,' Levy, and/or Yool. If you read that Chapter and don't know what you know of their actions later, you'd think Levy was a villain to Baam, or whatever. Later, we get a flashback that seems to counter this completely as THAT Captain is a big cheerleader for Baam. And Levy and Yool's motivators and actions - and orders - are not in alignment at all. I think SIU changes his mind all the time - what he did about Yama's backstory, I think he changed it about Fucile as well (at first Fucile was said to be "brave" by Yas, later we find out he's a robot that does whatever Yas says, indicating he can't be brave but he is forced to follow orders up to and including blowing his self up - I wouldn't call a robot following orders to fight Yama 'brave'). There are other examples I'm sure you're aware, but it's not unheard of in a series approaching 600 chapters, a decade in the making, with probably 100+ characters that the author would decide to change his mind on things. This is kind of a cop-out excuse though, but still in the realm of possibility as what we see in episode 1 doesn't jive with other things we know as fact, unless there is a good reason we will later find out.

2. The Captain - Luslec or not - KILLED the previous Captain and took his position behind the scenes. This is not unheard of for him either. It's literally what we see from the 'scar' Captain in the Nest - he pretends to be a hostile (to Baam) while advancing some greater agenda after infiltrating the LPB army. Maybe he found out there was a detachment working for Zahard with Levy and Yool in it and needed regulars to go to the regular area, so he took over that outfit and the goals changed entirely, at least after the events with Levy in S2, but certainly no later than S3 start. I thought this was the case for the longest once Yool mentioned the Captain sounding different, but we now know that's likely due to a different clone personality talking to Yool. OK, well, both can be true - different clones could play the Captain AND the Captain could have taken over the operation with Yool. Though this gets very sloppy with a lot of moving parts. Though again that's what we have to work with as it's established the Captain seems to sound different and has different entities and operates via infiltration and subversion. Controlled opposition if you will. In any event, Yool seems to know he's not working for Zahard but an 'individual' specifically, and working to advance FUG goals and aid Baam, so that doesn't seem like what someone would do if they thought they were working for a pro-Zahard outfit like Levy did. It also does not explain Levy's comments about his coworkers being all rankers. There are certainly multiple layers of intel compartmentalization at work here, but this would require several Captains keeping intel from both Yool and Levy separately, who in turn keep information from each other (Yool knowing they are not really pro-Zahard for instance). Possible, but who knows.

3. The Captain merely changed personalities (different clones on the line/pocket with Yool at different times with their different personalities). Maybe one is more pro-Baam than the others, or more of a hardliner, or an asshole. Maybe they don't always have the same info bank to work from, or some require more convincing that others. We know undoubtedly the old Captain in the flashback with Dowon was pro-Baam through and through, and spoke of all the things he would do and had very high hopes for him, saying the proto-FUG champions of the time should work with Baam in the future. That doesn't seem like the one in S3E1 who questions Baam's performances (unless he's just play-acting to Yool, which we know he's doing to some extent already). Alternatively, the Captain (singular or multiple) could have long waited for Baam thinking he'd be a badass like Enryu... only to get, well, Baam. Baam who starts very weak and underwhelming, and not like what you'd expect from a savior - who certainly has to prove himself (other messiah stories are like this as well, the most-known being Jesus who was hoped to be a warrior-messiah came as a meek person, confusing a lot of people that expected a badass from the start, leading to a military not spiritual victory, or so the story goes). We know that even with the Captains high level of intel he still relies on reports from underlings: such as HWR and Jinsung who have given him multiple reports on different occasions already that we've seen or been referenced, probably many more we don't know of that are off-screened. The report the Captain references in S3E1 (Baam besting rankers and surviving) is not too different as even Luslec is relying on these reports - HWR giving Luslec a report Baam beat a ranker at a ranking office, finally, for instance - and even having to confirm that there would be a success at the Nest. IDK, but if you ask me it seems like she was trying to convince Luslec of a victory he wasn't sure of. A Luslec with *complete* trust in Baam's performance wouldn't need HWR to convince him of a Nest win - that would simply be a given. In spite of them knowing the Nest is designed specifically as a trap for Baam.

We don't exactly know how it works, but they all can't be the Captain at once. Do they play the Captain to different people at different times simultaneously? Does one clone tell the others he will be in the lead while the others chill? Maybe only one is active at a time and the others are in 'sleep' (it's odd but said that some Slayers are 'asleep')? Are they working from a sensitive location (Zahard's inner sanctum?) that requires only one to risk popping out to be the Captain (remotely) for them to have to then compare notes after the fact while that one clone has to act independent of the others without their consensus? Etc etc. What we do know if the 'Captain' seems to have changed from in S3E1 to not long into S3 when Yool picks up a personality/voice change. That means SOMETHING changed, and the person driving the Captain car certainly did. This person is more in alignment with the Captain from the Dowon flashback it seems, but even the S3E1 Captain was working towards a goal of using Baam for the same purposes as the others, although with a much heavier hand (beating up his friends and using them as hostages).

It's almost like the following is going on:

With the possibility of even more 'heads' with even more hot takes on Baam.

As such - all personalities could be operating as both The Captain (we know they do) AND Luslec (as leaders of almost identically-motivated anti-Zahard organizations), or Luslec could simply be the lead clone/personality in each outfit (likely being the oldest/first/most powerful clone). At least flashback 'mole' clone and current 'scar' clone seem on board with what Luslec wants with Baam - it seems.

Separate clones are sharing the same title and personality of the Captain (possibly with separate outlooks on Baam) whether I'm right or not though.

4. As usual, something else entirely we don't know yet.

Or Luslec is not one person and is the total of more than one person with different personalities and agendas who are called the Captains which I highly doubt.

Well, that's happening with the Captain regardless (re: personalities). Still, I don't think their agendas (as separate clone personalities, not as Luslec per se) are necessarily at odds with each other, I just think their personalities and methodologies can vary, a bit, but not from the main end-goal. It would be impossible to operate as either the Captain or Luslec if one entity was trying to kill Baam for real while at least another one entirely is trying to help him. They would constantly be fighting to 'drive' and blowing up each other's plans, and they'd hardly get anything done. That's too much of a cartoonish figure for them to be so stealthy and successful with their intel, as well as Baam's continued success which seems to be the overall trajectory.

In conclusion, I am trying to say that the Captain speaking with Yool at the beginning of S3 probably told Yool to test him if He is the real deal or not and If He is , then told him to cooperate.The Captain knows the prophecy but He does not know that Viole is the child in the prophecy so He tests him. But Luslec already knows Viole is Arlene's son and even gives him the Grace name . That is why I don't think Luslec is the Captain but as i said previously He might be one of the Captains if they are more than one.

Kind of already addressed, but

- Luslec knows who Baam is, yet continues to test him (and let those in FUG test him, such as HJ who has to be won over by Baam)
- Gustang knows who Baam is, yet continues to test him (same with whatever individual or organization he's working with off-screen - Headon?)
- Garam seems to echo this sentiment towards Baam, and to Androssi specifically, suggesting Baam can fill only 1 of 2 roles, but not both... a test if you will to see what he chooses, and Androssi by extension as someone that likes and/or is supporting Baam will likewise have to figure out which supporting role to play.
- HWR knows, via Luslec most likely, and still functions to test Baam from the get-go as she supports Rachel in the beginning to use as a carrot on a stick for Baam's growth, and doesn't stop even up to the events in the Nest
- Hell, Rachel seems to know who Baam is, and still doesn't let him be that person as she wants the glory for herself

The Captain just being yet another (of the select few) to know what Baam is and still test him is just how everyone has been towards Baam and is nothing new. That would be 100% of those that know still watching Baam with baited breath to see how he does perform nevertheless. I mean flashback Captain knew of Baam long in advance and knew what to be looking for, and yet S3E1 (if taken at his word which is sus anyways) doesn't seem to pick up on either the "Viole" or "Grace" part of JVG's name, nor find his performance believable? Seems that is EXACTLY what flashback Captain would be looking out for. S3E1 Captain doesn't just seem to have an outlook (again, could just be performative) at odds with Luslec, he has an outlook that's seemingly at odds with flashback Captain as well. Something is up, but I don't think it topples the theory just yet or at all. It's merely an SIU hiccup and/or another layer of mystery surrounding the very few that are aware of Baam's lineage and prophetic destiny.

NO ONE who knows who Baam is just stops what they are doing no questions asked and full-on lays it all out there in an overt show of support for Baam. Well, save Cha(d) of course. Everyone else withholds, tests, watches, waits.

===============================================================

For those that are holdouts:

1. Do you believe that, since you think they are separate, 'The Captain' knows of and/or works with Luslec? Why or why not?

2. Do you believe that at least flashback Captain (possibly others as well, but at least 'mole') was along for the great journey, thus putting him in the same cohort as Luslec? Why or why not?

3. How do you explain all the similarities/overlap itemized on page 2? All the way down to the demonic, glowing red eyes that one would expect from a 'god of demons' Luslec to their mutual interests in helping spring Jinsung, who solidly is a FUG-only operative (not 'the Captain')? How do you explain that BOTH knew pre-king, pre-change Zahard and how his change personally affected their attitudes towards him?

4. How do you explain the Captain's Luslec-level of S-tier intel for things like, but not limited to:

- knowing where exactly to find Dowon in the flashback, and that she was going to be asked to freeze herself before she was even aware of the news
- knowing similar for Cha, that he'd be needed by Baam in the future, and stories for him to tell Baam about his mom (umm, hello)
- knowing the prophecy, Baam's lineage, and what to expect from Baam... far in advance
- knowing Jinsung's value and location he's held at, also how to get into the suspendium and maybe even what Baam would find there (a PU)
- knowing precisely when and where to find Baam at a secretive FUG outpost pre-Yama arc in an exact moment in time
- knowing what was needed for Cage infiltration needing Yool's unique set of skills (and ship)
- knowing when Dowon was woken up (and exactly when this would happen), and that Baam & Co would be going to the Wall of Coexistence and need a ride there (S3E50 it is mentioned they - Yool - have way more intel than they do via the Captain, and this is coming from a freaking red witch - albeit one that was working for an elder that isn't kowtowing to Luslec over Baam, and as such wouldn't have access to Luslec's intel as they are working against Baam)
- as mentioned in 3., knowing Zahard close enough to witness a change in his character

Sure, the Captain has foresight better than even Khel. But, unless Luslec was also the Captain he wouldn't have this level of information in the form of foresight whereas all of these things are relevant to his interests, same as the Captains. In fact if you didn't know the above was from the Captain, but instead read that it was information fed to FUG/Baam/HWR via Luslec, it wouldn't be unfitting at all.

 

[Demonspeed]

I have been thinking about this. If the Boss was revealed to be a strong blond dude unrelated to Zahard Princes would you consider it bad writing?

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

I have been thinking about this. If the Boss was revealed to be a strong blond dude unrelated to Zahard Princes would you consider it bad writing?

Not necessarily. I think the clues, to me at least, only cut one direction.

I mean, we're all expecting twists, right?

I also think SIU has been laying out a breadcrumb trail that will be obvious in hindsight.

I suppose this theory is my baby. I have the most hope for this, and slightly less Dowon being Eurasian, but I've been wrong plenty with other theories I'm less invested in, so who knows.

 

[Ignorant]

Consider:

- 462 blog confirms 'the captain' and 'the 'boss' is one in the same, looks like Wangnan/data Zahard, hints at revealing his identity later (he's not Wangnan, Karaka, and probably not Zahard...)
- The 'Captain' is privy to quite a lot - where Jinsung is being held, and that Dowon would one day meet 'a boy' and what that boy would become (he knows the prophecy)
- The Captain/Boss is motivated to spring Jinsung from prison, as Luslec would be since they work closely together
- Luslec knows/knew V and Arlen, and thus knows of the prophecy - it is said he is one of the few in FUG that knows Baam's true backstory and even FUG isn't made aware of this. For example, this was compartmentalized from even Karaka and Jinsung himself seems to scratch his head over what Baam really is. Yet both the 'Captain' and Luslec know (because they're the same person, duh)
- The 'Captain' had already 'adventured' prior to 'Genesis' and described himself as an adventurer
- 'The Great Adventure' refers to climbing the tower
- Data Zahard refers to yearning for Adventure - basically, anything 'adventure' related still deals with climbing the tower in the unconquered form pre-Zahard empire in ToG.
- FUG existed before Genesis in proto form, Luslec did too as a helper to V possibly Arlen (actually he helped all of the OG13 climb prior to the great schism between them)
- Luslec is 'the Boss' of FUG (such an obvious allusion when used by 'the captain')
- Hidden Garden was separate from FUG - leftover members joined FUG via Khell's group after Dowon's sealing
- Thus, Dowon was never affiliated with FUG and/or Luslec proper, nor introduced or beholden to him (Luslec introduced himself as 'the boss' [of FUG] instead of using his name)
- Not that it matters, most of modern-day FUG isn't on a face-to-face type of relationship with Luslec - a secretive person (probably more so if you look like the King lol)
- Who else would Dowon wake up to and immediate defer to? Cha is sealed, and her co-leader. She had no 'Boss' proper and would not consider Luslec the leader as Hidden Garden wasn't affiliated with FUG proper and she referred to herself and Cha as the leaders. Why would she awaken and start immediately listening to a nameless adventurer if he didn't have more clout than just being a silly seer?
- we know that a Zahard prince/clone now was already old (lots of stories of 'adventure) at the time the Z empire was being founded in 'Genesis'
- Zahard had help climbing the tower
- More specifically, Zahard had help with PRINCESSES climbing the tower (and Luslec): "'King of Tower' Zahard is the most famous and greatest being in the whole Tower. In the ancient times, when there was no civilization in the Tower, he came into the Tower and built his own empire. Zahard is a great king and a true warrior. Everyone living in the Tower is the son or daughter of Zahard. He is like a god to the habitants of the Tower.

Zahard conquered the Tower with the 10 families, and gained control of the 134 floors from the floor Guardians. (Some floors were conquered by Zahard's daughters.)"
Source:

Spoiler

http://vatoto.com/forums/topic/4664-rankers-1-15-blog-post-translations-collected/

- i.e., princesses of Zahard were helpful/responsible for conquering from the admin some of the as-yet unconquered floors in the 'Great Adventure' of the OG13
- As such the princess program predates Zahard being King and the adventurers topping the tower
- Combined with an already-aged/'adventured' Zahard clone the prince program did most likely as well (probably predated even the princess program, or at least ran concurrent)
- Via blogs we are told Wangnan is much older than he looks (and he's damn-near immortal already in fortitude) - at least as old as Karaka
- Via a blog we are told that there are PRINCES (plural) of Zahard and that they are ones with the rings and SIU specifically says 'Karaka, Wangnan, ETC' <--- etc.
- Anyways, it is clear this 'Boss'/adventurer is an old figure that is all but a clone (that mole) of Zahard - another one. An 'etc'
- It wouldn't be unreasonable to expect an aged 'prince' to be just as strong or stronger than a princess of Zahard - and rank as such
- Luslec ranks up there with the best of them...
- "But Luslec was born on floor 80F" - see: the princess/prince program predates 134F/Z empire thus some of the first iterations would be 'born' on lower floors to later help climb. 80F is possibly the/a site of the 'prince program'
- "But Luslec was a 'warlord' serving under V" - yes, but first he helped - as a prince - the 13 adventurers climb just as the first princesses were reported to do (per SIU). Most likely after Zahard stopped climbing and whatever event caused the shit to hit the fan with V he was sympathetic to V's plight (he wanted to keep adventuring after all - as did V/Arlen) and as a clone that could have hated his father for his creation (hello, Karaka) joined up under V to fight Zahard. Later formed FUG.

You need to add the origin of wangnan here and the info he got from Hwa Ryun..

Let me see if i recall right

Zahard is from the Red light district right?
but where is this Red light district?
because hwa ryun said that the commit big mistakes over there like fucking women and shit… so they has probably a lot bastard son and daughter over there to erase this stories they destroyed the place.

But if Zahard came from the outside of the tower
How is he available to came back to his hometown?

wangnan escape with a person he thought was his mother whi told him he has the seed of a king in him
And gave him the ring of zahard..
time after this a person came to him and told him
Something..
headon offer him to climb the tower and he did
Unable to die he got stuck in the 20th floor for a long time w/o friend because they all die his last team was killed by Yiwha flames But he did not die..
white destroyed his heart with his sword and he did not die too..
obviously he has an immortal body.

Then Karaka mention that he is looking for his little brother and sent wangnan to certain place where he going to learn about him and lady who raised him.
What is this place? A mystery yet.


I got few theories here:

the strong one is called: Orochimaru‘s way.

the first immortal person in the serie of Naruto
Using his jutsu “body changing” where he left his old skin/body like the snake to get a new one.. in his case another body younger and stronger with certain special talents..

In boruto Orichimaru is experiment in artificial insemination to get a son with a perfect body
He finally can get one with Mitsuki.

For me Wangnan is Zahard mitsuki in order to replace him in the tower throne while he get to the another level.
Axis level.

In his current level Zahard can’t even enter the 135 floor
The tower were create in oder to produce Axis
But he’s not there yet so he stoped climbing finding this and chose to be king to Prepare himself to step up to the other level.

to be continue.. im going to re-read few things

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

You need to add the origin of wangnan here and the info he got from Hwa Ryun..

Let me see if i recall right

Zahard is from the Red light district right?
but where is this Red light district?
because hwa ryun said that the commit big mistakes over there like fucking women and shit… so they has probably a lot bastard son and daughter over there to erase this stories they destroyed the place.

But if Zahard came from the outside of the tower
How is he available to came back to his hometown?

wangnan escape with a person he thought was his mother whi told him he has the seed of a king in him
And gave him the ring of zahard..
time after this a person came to him and told him
Something..
headon offer him to climb the tower and he did
Unable to die he got stuck in the 20th floor for a long time w/o friend because they all die his last team was killed by Yiwha flames But he did not die..
white destroyed his heart with his sword and he did not die too..
obviously he has an immortal body.

Then Karaka mention that he is looking for his little brother and sent wangnan to certain place where he going to learn about him and lady who raised him.
What is this place? A mystery yet.


I got few theories here:

the strong one is called: Orochimaru‘s way.

the first immortal person in the serie of Naruto
Using his jutsu “body changing” where he left his old skin/body like the snake to get a new one.. in his case another body younger and stronger with certain special talents..

In boruto Orichimaru is experiment in artificial insemination to get a son with a perfect body
He finally can get one with Mitsuki.

For me Wangnan is Zahard mitsuki in order to replace him in the tower throne while he get to the another level.
Axis level.

In his current level Zahard can’t even enter the 135 floor
The tower were create in oder to produce Axis
But he’s not there yet so he stoped climbing finding this and chose to be king to Prepare himself to step up to the other level.

to be continue..

It is likely the clones have a purpose for Zahard specifically (or once did), yes. Even the Boss clone in the Nest has repeated that they don't even know what they are/what purpose they serve. But, they have certainly served some purpose all this time - if not just their own. It is also clear that their usefulness was considered over, and attempts were made to cover up the program creating them, burning down the RLD, and containing information about their very existence which is seen as bad press for the FHs in general, and a great "shame" for Zahard in particular.

What do you mean Zahard is from the RLD - you mean Wangnan, right? Zahard is undoubtedly from the outside of the tower, I don't think it's mentioned he is from a RLD himself (even if outside the tower). That's where Wangnan came from (inside the tower RLD), and is likely where prostitutes are used as vessels to birth clones against their wills to get clone 'sons' of Zahard as "princes"... similar to how princesses are created in vats as well:

The RLD is just likely where the unwitting females/prosties were used as surrogates, and/or the clone factory location (there could be more than one as well). It has to be somewhere in the tower after all.

 

[Demonspeed]

Not necessarily. I think the clues, to me at least, only cut one direction.

I mean, we're all expecting twists, right?

I also think SIU has been laying out a breadcrumb trail that will be obvious in hindsight.

I suppose this theory is my baby. I have the most hope for this, and slightly less Dowon being Eurasian, but I've been wrong plenty with other theories I'm less invested in, so who knows.

All I am saying is that with the blond hair, hidden face and hype surrounding him it seems obvious that he is like Wangnan. Way feels too obvious. I would be very surprised if he isn't a Zahard Prince but if it turns out that he isn't I am curious to see how people would react.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

All I am saying is that with the blond hair, hidden face and hype surrounding him it seems obvious that he is like Wangnan. Way feels too obvious. I would be very surprised if he isn't a Zahard Prince but if it turns out that he isn't I am curious to see how people would react.

So, if it were ONLY the Boss we see at the Nest with his face covered, I'd say the chances that it's not a Zahard clone could increase - as you say, just another random blonde.

The issue I have with that is we have the clone from the flashbacks in Genesis that called himself the Captain/Boss (I guess that's a function of translation differences), and we know without a doubt that is a Zahard figure. He has a power of Zahard - foresight - and we know the princes have powers of Zahard 'that they should not have' or something to that effect. I believe the exact blog/quote is on page one. We ALSO have the blog that says that is a face that should be familiar to us a la Wangnan and Young Zahard; similar but confirmed to be different person (i.e., not Zahard, but very much like him... which is what we know the princes are).

So, there's already a hard confirmation that 'the Boss' is a Zahard figure from the ancient one. This one just seems to be another one, and he refers to himself as a "we" indicating there are more than one (clones obviously), and that puts him in leaque with the other clone we say talking to Dowon/Cha during the twilight of Genesis. That means at a minimum 2 'Boss' figures, maybe even 3 or more, but 2 are confirmed.

SIU has also gone out of his way to give each clone distinguishing features that still allow them to be a clone. For instance, with the flashback clone/Boss that feature is the mole. This one has the feature of a facial scar.

Much in the same way you could have two identical twins, but if one has a scar from a unique trauma the other won't have that, yet they are biologically clones and have all the other features of each other as well. The same goes for moles which appear at random and aren't the same for even biological, identical twins.


The hair color is just further proof, as expected of all these Zahard clones. It's not like the entire theory is predicated on him being blonde.

 

[Ignorant]

It is likely the clones have a purpose for Zahard specifically (or once did), yes. Even the Boss clone in the Nest has repeated that they don't even know what they are/what purpose they serve. But, they have certainly served some purpose all this time - if not just their own. It is also clear that their usefulness was considered over, and attempts were made to cover up the program creating them, burning down the RLD, and containing information about their very existence which is seen as bad press for the FHs in general, and a great "shame" for Zahard in particular.

What do you mean Zahard is from the RLD - you mean Wangnan, right? Zahard is undoubtedly from the outside of the tower, I don't think it's mentioned he is from a RLD himself (even if outside the tower). That's where Wangnan came from (inside the tower RLD), and is likely where prostitutes are used as vessels to birth clones against their wills to get clone 'sons' of Zahard as "princes"... similar to how princesses are created in vats as well:

The RLD is just likely where the unwitting females/prosties were used as surrogates, and/or the clone factory location (there could be more than one as well). It has to be somewhere in the tower after all.

It is likely the clones have a purpose for Zahard specifically (or once did), yes. Even the Boss clone in the Nest has repeated that they don't even know what they are/what purpose they serve. But, they have certainly served some purpose all this time - if not just their own. It is also clear that their usefulness was considered over, and attempts were made to cover up the program creating them, burning down the RLD, and containing information about their very existence which is seen as bad press for the FHs in general, and a great "shame" for Zahard in particular.

What do you mean Zahard is from the RLD - you mean Wangnan, right? Zahard is undoubtedly from the outside of the tower, I don't think it's mentioned he is from a RLD himself (even if outside the tower). That's where Wangnan came from (inside the tower RLD), and is likely where prostitutes are used as vessels to birth clones against their wills to get clone 'sons' of Zahard as "princes"... similar to how princesses are created in vats as well:

The RLD is just likely where the unwitting females/prosties were used as surrogates, and/or the clone factory location (there could be more than one as well). It has to be somewhere in the tower after all.

I’ll be back with the boss/captain thing im working rn.
Crazy that i don’t remember that chapter where that image came from i thought Zahard were from the RLD too.. i have to re-read some more chapters that i i have in mind..

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

I’ll be back with the boss/captain thing im working rn.
Crazy that i don’t remember that chapter where that image came from i thought Zahard were from the RLD too.. i have to re-read some more chapters that i i have in mind..

I think it's S1 33 give or take a chapter. It starts with talking about Zahard.