Predictions Luslec is a 'prince' of Zahard... and 'the Boss'/'the Captain'

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Consider:

- 462 blog confirms 'the captain' and 'the 'boss' is one in the same, looks like Wangnan/data Zahard, hints at revealing his identity later (he's not Wangnan, Karaka, and probably not Zahard...)
- The 'Captain' is privy to quite a lot - where Jinsung is being held, and that Dowon would one day meet 'a boy' and what that boy would become (he knows the prophecy)
- The Captain/Boss is motivated to spring Jinsung from prison, as Luslec would be since they work closely together
- Luslec knows/knew V and Arlen, and thus knows of the prophecy - it is said he is one of the few in FUG that knows Baam's true backstory and even FUG isn't made aware of this. For example, this was compartmentalized from even Karaka and Jinsung himself seems to scratch his head over what Baam really is. Yet both the 'Captain' and Luslec know (because they're the same person, duh)
- The 'Captain' had already 'adventured' prior to 'Genesis' and described himself as an adventurer
- 'The Great Adventure' refers to climbing the tower
- Data Zahard refers to yearning for Adventure - basically, anything 'adventure' related still deals with climbing the tower in the unconquered form pre-Zahard empire in ToG.
- FUG existed before Genesis in proto form, Luslec did too as a helper to V possibly Arlen (actually he helped all of the OG13 climb prior to the great schism between them)
- Luslec is 'the Boss' of FUG (such an obvious allusion when used by 'the captain')
- Hidden Garden was separate from FUG - leftover members joined FUG via Khell's group after Dowon's sealing
- Thus, Dowon was never affiliated with FUG and/or Luslec proper, nor introduced or beholden to him (Luslec introduced himself as 'the boss' [of FUG] instead of using his name)
- Not that it matters, most of modern-day FUG isn't on a face-to-face type of relationship with Luslec - a secretive person (probably more so if you look like the King lol)
- Who else would Dowon wake up to and immediate defer to? Cha is sealed, and her co-leader. She had no 'Boss' proper and would not consider Luslec the leader as Hidden Garden wasn't affiliated with FUG proper and she referred to herself and Cha as the leaders. Why would she awaken and start immediately listening to a nameless adventurer if he didn't have more clout than just being a silly seer?
- we know that a Zahard prince/clone now was already old (lots of stories of 'adventure) at the time the Z empire was being founded in 'Genesis'
- Zahard had help climbing the tower
- More specifically, Zahard had help with PRINCESSES climbing the tower (and Luslec): "'King of Tower' Zahard is the most famous and greatest being in the whole Tower. In the ancient times, when there was no civilization in the Tower, he came into the Tower and built his own empire. Zahard is a great king and a true warrior. Everyone living in the Tower is the son or daughter of Zahard. He is like a god to the habitants of the Tower.

Zahard conquered the Tower with the 10 families, and gained control of the 134 floors from the floor Guardians. (Some floors were conquered by Zahard's daughters.)"
Source:

Spoiler

http://vatoto.com/forums/topic/4664-rankers-1-15-blog-post-translations-collected/

- i.e., princesses of Zahard were helpful/responsible for conquering from the admin some of the as-yet unconquered floors in the 'Great Adventure' of the OG13
- As such the princess program predates Zahard being King and the adventurers topping the tower
- Combined with an already-aged/'adventured' Zahard clone the prince program did most likely as well (probably predated even the princess program, or at least ran concurrent)
- Via blogs we are told Wangnan is much older than he looks (and he's damn-near immortal already in fortitude) - at least as old as Karaka
- Via a blog we are told that there are PRINCES (plural) of Zahard and that they are ones with the rings and SIU specifically says 'Karaka, Wangnan, ETC' <--- etc.
- Anyways, it is clear this 'Boss'/adventurer is an old figure that is all but a clone (that mole) of Zahard - another one. An 'etc'
- It wouldn't be unreasonable to expect an aged 'prince' to be just as strong or stronger than a princess of Zahard - and rank as such
- Luslec ranks up there with the best of them...
- "But Luslec was born on floor 80F" - see: the princess/prince program predates 134F/Z empire thus some of the first iterations would be 'born' on lower floors to later help climb. 80F is possibly the/a site of the 'prince program'
- "But Luslec was a 'warlord' serving under V" - yes, but first he helped - as a prince - the 13 adventurers climb just as the first princesses were reported to do (per SIU). Most likely after Zahard stopped climbing and whatever event caused the shit to hit the fan with V he was sympathetic to V's plight (he wanted to keep adventuring after all - as did V/Arlen) and as a clone that could have hated his father for his creation (hello, Karaka) joined up under V to fight Zahard. Later formed FUG.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

I'm just trying to figure out how it jives with the princess program supposedly being made to shut people up about a queen post-coronation. That Zahard bio seems to indicate they were around before he was a tower king. Maybe it was a product of him being a 'floor king' no different from White in his prime or Molic as a lord on some floor. Maybe Zahard repurposed the age-old princess program to be used for a PR stunt. IDK.

Either way, the fact that an old Z clone already existed in the time of Genesis combined with the bio that pointedly says the princesses helped the climb makes me think the programs started a lot earlier than we initially thought.

And even if the princess program was post tower-kingship, it would seem at least the prince program wasn't. The 'Captain' being old and storied up by the time the Z empire was just being founded (Genesis) implies he was around for a while - to include time in the initial climb (irrespective of the dating of the princess program). I've always believed the prince program came first anyways.

 

[Jack Van Burace]

Looks like I have to revive my old theory. It says each admin Floor test becomes harder as floors get higher, and that the tax for passing the next test involves losing everything you achieved so far. Jahad Will only be able to reach the next Floor when Bam destroys all his Empire and defeats him throughly. Which in fact he doesn't want, cause It is dear to him. And he trully hates Bam's guts for being the reason Arlene doesn't love him. The Admins can see his feelings and imposed him such a test to open the next Floor. That's what I think the prophecy consists at. And that somehow V can be brought back using the Power contained in the following floor.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Are you saying he could have used the princesses to conquer floors on his behalf - since he can control them after all (like Doom with the houndborn) to gain the ability to climb while not personally taking an L as they took the L for him as his proxy?

That's kind of like my opinion that all contracts in the tower have a hidden negative in some way. If you conquer the floor you get to rule with a contract, one by one. If Zahard had proxies doing his biding dealing with the 'shackles' when he got the benefit of being able to pass transfered to him with the sacrificial prince or princess. Yes, it's a new theory too but not too crazy in the scheme of the tower.

 

[zamki]

I did not read the entire post but I dont quite think so .As far as I remember , Levi(the guy who was able to use spells and he said this ability was granted to him by Zahard)and this snake guy and co are affiliated. We already know Levi is a regular henchman of Zahard which makes me think that this snake guy and co , Levi and the Boss are all affiliated to Zahard.

This boss is most probably serving Zahard at the moment.And He is planning to betray.

But still an interesting theory.

 

[toil]

I'm just trying to figure out how it jives with the princess program supposedly being made to shut people up about a queen post-coronation. That Zahard bio seems to indicate they were around before he was a tower king. Maybe it was a product of him being a 'floor king' no different from White in his prime or Molic as a lord on some floor. Maybe Zahard repurposed the age-old princess program to be used for a PR stunt. IDK.

FWIW I think there's a way to interpret the stuff about princesses, floor and tower kings, conquering floors, etc., that fits what we've seen and doesn't require as much theorizing to make sense.

What makes sense to me is simply that Zahard's initial grant of kingship was just that—a grant of kingship.

What took much longer—and required "conquering floors", etc.—was establishing the Zahard empire's control over the pre-existing peoples and civilizations within the tower.

Note that even in the "present era", the empire doesn't reliably control entire floors—we've been told over and over that the farther parts of the outer tower can be extremely-isolated. IIRC it's even phrased as "may not know about Zahard", or something like that.

In any case, I picture the initial climb as a bunch of bizarre outsider pilgrims passing through each floor on their route to the top. Zahard gets himself crowned king-of-the-tower, but it takes a lot longer to establish physical control over (portions of) the floors.

This interpretation seems to get rid of the timeline concerns you raise here, because it implies a likely multi-millennium window wherein there could be interest in princesses within the kingdom but also (portions of) floors to conquer outside the kingdom.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Appreciate the response. My thoughts.

I did not read the entire post but I dont quite think so .As far as I remember , Levi(the guy who was able to use spells and he said this ability was granted to him by Zahard)and this snake guy and co are affiliated.

And YET we see Snek now working WITH Baam. Is he controlled opposition, maybe. But he seems to think he's taking orders from a 'Boss' and not directly from Zahard (via internal monologue we see) - he seems to think they are separate entities. Also, they are working to free Baam's mentor, Jinsung, and find the missing painting piece, and network to build support for FUG... none of which would seem to be helpful to what Zahard is trying to do - stop Baam.

We already know Levi is a regular henchman of Zahard which makes me think that this snake guy and co , Levi and the Boss are all affiliated to Zahard.

I don't remember him saying he was empowered by Zahard personally. But even if so perhaps his allegiances changed? We've seen that happen several times. Snek doesn't follow orders from the CC's or anything. They (Snek and Levi) seem to share a loose affiliation at this point - if at all. Snek could be a double-agent.

This boss is most probably serving Zahard at the moment.And He is planning to betray.

Not sure I'm clear - he's planning to betray... Baam (I assume that's what you mean)? Yet, Baam already has the drive to save his master he doesn't need someone pretending to help to drive him towards Jinsung. Further, recent dialogue suggests the Boss might not even trust Snek.

Although it's not out of the realm of possibility at all.

But still an interesting theory.

Thanks. I know you didn't read the whole thing but there are some very interesting similarities that Luslec would have and 'the Boss' has. And, as of now, a great deal of overlap in their motivations. It's also an interesting prospect that there existed princesses/princes prior to Zahard topping the tower. That opens up a realm of possibilities in how those that helped the climb might have later ended up on one end of the divide or the other - and we KNOW several 'princes' are anti-Zahard. It wouldn't be an anomaly at all to have yet another prince be working against Zahard. A prince that helped Zahard climb - as we are told Luslec did. And as that bio in the OP suggests the princesses also did.

And what ISN'T a theory (confirmed in 462 blog) is that the 'boss' that Snek listens to is one in the same as the one that met with Dowon long ago before she was sealed. Are you up to date on the chapter discussions? Because it's hard to talk about certain events without spoilers. Suffice to say that if 'the Boss' were to be against Baam he is providing Baam a lot of help rather than a quick blow against him if he were truly looking to put him down. The most circuitous betrayal possible given the most recent chapter IMO.

I will update this thread when the latest chapter sneak peak becomes an official chapter.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 20, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 19, 2020 ---

FWIW I think there's a way to interpret the stuff about princesses, floor and tower kings, conquering floors, etc., that fits what we've seen and doesn't require as much theorizing to make sense.

What makes sense to me is simply that Zahard's initial grant of kingship was just that—a grant of kingship.

What took much longer—and required "conquering floors", etc.—was establishing the Zahard empire's control over the pre-existing peoples and civilizations within the tower.

Note that even in the "present era", the empire doesn't reliably control entire floors—we've been told over and over that the farther parts of the outer tower can be extremely-isolated. IIRC it's even phrased as "may not know about Zahard", or something like that.

In any case, I picture the initial climb as a bunch of bizarre outsider pilgrims passing through each floor on their route to the top. Zahard gets himself crowned king-of-the-tower, but it takes a lot longer to establish physical control over (portions of) the floors.

This interpretation seems to get rid of the timeline concerns you raise here, because it implies a likely multi-millennium window wherein there could be interest in princesses within the kingdom but also (portions of) floors to conquer outside the kingdom.

So your thought is that the OG13 merely passed the tests on their way to 143, then Zahard was offered kingship and had to basically work his way back down the tower to subjugate the floors? (which would take quite some time).

I suppose that's possible. Even probable. Though many more questions arise:

- Why would Zahard be offered kingship of the entire tower if he hadn't ALREADY wrestled control of the floors, all floors, from the admin?
- Why would the admin let them pass to the next floor if they hadn't been subjugated already? Doesn't it seem more intuitive that each floor was conquered on the way up, one at a time, and they Zahard stopped at 143 and said 'I own all this shit now below me' (except 1F)?
- What exactly does it mean that Zahard (& Co.) "gained control of the floors FROM the guardians. (some floors were conquered by his daughters)"? The usage of 'conquered' and 'gained control from' implies against their will. We know he cannot outright KILL admin, but he had to the power to subjugate them? Moreover, some princesses had the power to subjugate floor admin?!? Seems like it would take a power equal to or greater than an admin to do such - perhaps this has something to do with his internal monster (like Baam's blue thryssa). Can he loan that power to princesses (we know he can control them)?

We know the break with V/Arlen was after he became king, and also stopped continuing up the tower. But we weren't told how immediate that was or wasn't. Perhaps it took 100's or 1000's or years (pre-genesis? early genesis?) for them to come to blows. During which time Zahard was busy in conquest. Maybe they didn't see a true king having to conquer floors with force and upset the natural balance from the guardians. Whatever. Plenty of time for Luslec (whatever he was) to defect and then serve under V to fight against Zahard. More so if he were a former disgruntled employee pissed off clone/prince and not some rando without a dog in the fight blindly following V.




===================

Side note: I wouldn't be surprised if Karaka's uber-armor (comes in Zahard clone fit curiously enough!) wasn't from Luslec (either directly or through some other means) as 'the Boss' and a clone/prince. I mean, Luslec's armor was probably blessed by Arlen (said to have a strong spell - her specialty and many high-level spells/items are tied to her specifically) being he rubbed elbows with her and V against Zahard. It is too OP for how Karaka presents and clearly comes from some other person that is/was more capable (Karaka doesn't really deserve it). It has the ability to form a pocket dimension only accessible to the elite of the elite, and a form of immortality/preservation that Arlen would have been familiar with as well. And IF Luslec was a clone it would hint at some link with another clone (Karaka in this case) getting his armor through some sort of shared circumstances (Karaka raided daddy/brother [eww] Luslec's equipment room just like AA? Luslec, knowing what Karaka was/is, saw to it that he receive an item to keep him alive?). Maybe Luslec fought in that armor under V in the past - similar to Yas' subordinate (armor-cat, forget his name) that fights in similar armor or Khell's subordinate (Mule) that used similar armor. It would have also possibly served to hide his identity from others as a clone, and now he works from the shadows (Luslec is clearly working from the shadows several layers deep). Even if 'Boss' and Luslec are two separate beings It doesn't seem like 'Boss' wants his identity known. Face-covering armor would have served that purpose just like it does for Karaka. Though, I can't figure out why no one ever remarks that Wangnan looks like Zahard...

There is also the possibility that Karaka met 'the Boss' (secretly Luslec) and received his armor from him. To Wangnan, Karaka says "I will tell you everything if you show me the rings as proof. I can't tell you anything until then. Just like you, I only intend to tell the secret to those who have the ring."

This, to me, strongly implies Karaka has ALREADY met other clones or expects their existence. "Those" with the ring. Not "the other" with the ring. There is a plurality. And SIU's blog confirms other princes.

Maybe he was able to open up to the 'Boss'/Luslec (as one or the other or both) - he is shocked to find out the truth of his existence from someone that knows all the deets. Luslec/'the Boss' works to help his climb as he can sympathize with Karaka's plight and origins on a personal level. He tells him to hide his existence and 'only show his face to those he can absolutely trust' (why he won't even show it to his master, Jinsung. Or talk about it if Wangnan can't show him the actual ring). Gives him OP armor to help him rank/stay alive. Sends Jinsung to train him personally to make him into a Slayer. Basically cultivates another clone brother. And this is one reason why Luslec either didn't kill him or send Jinsung to kill him after disobeying his orders over Baam (the conspiring elder was killed instead).

Thus, maybe Jinsung knows who Luslec really is. Luslec, a secretly clone of Zahard, who knows about the boy from V/Arlen, and later tells Dowon prior to be sealed as 'the Boss'. Jinsung uses kid's gloves with Karaka (probably knowing more than he lets on - let's be honest Jinsung knows a whole hell of a lot). And Jinsung basically says to Mas 'girl, you don't even fucking know 'bout those ancient beings' to indicate just how fucked up the tower history is.

Or maybe Luslec hides his true identity from even Jinsung, but we know they talk at some level and Jinsung follows him without question.

===================

The 'Boss' of what exactly? An organization I would presume ('boss' implies an organization!). Hmmm, an organization hidden in shadows with high-level players/knowledge and with an anti-Zahard agenda and Z-clone leadership. Oh, I got it - a NEW elite organization with a clone at the helm that looks to dethrone Zahard, right? An (new) organization with such high-level knowledge that they are privy to where Jinsung is being held in super-max?? Move over FUG and WingTree. Yeah, right.

FFS, if not the 'Boss' of FUG then what??

===================

Oh, and much has been said about Luslec's name, Grace Mirchea Luslec, and the possible connection to Arlen Grace. Is Luslec her love child (not likely given the importance put on Baam)? Her brother (an thus an irregular - not likely)? Then what? The name connection does not seem to be accidental and is a strong hint at a connection. And Luslec, whatever his connection, obviously existed long ago before the splinter fight and Baam being born.

In this thread/theory he is neither, but he is still very much connected.... Zahard was OBSESSED with Arlen. Zahard ALSO created princesses and princes. Officially, the prince program didn't exist (obvious propaganda, b/c clearly it DID). And officially, the princess program was - or at least the fruits of it (princesses). Although princes also exist though they technically shouldn't by government propaganda standards. Princesses were from non-related girls. 'Princes' on the other hand SEEM to be clones and thus are seen more as actual 'children'.

So, what would your pet name be for the 'first-born' of your clandestine clone program - and your first-born 'son'? Especially if you know you can't have kids of your own, though you WANT kids with a certain someone...

And let's say you name that clone/son after your romantic obsession because you are imagining a life with his 'mother' in your sick head... and said clone finds out the truth later on? This is a very similar motivation - whatever the mechanics are - that Karaka has as a clone/prince. Possibly even Wangnan if he didn't block his memories. Clones sick of the knowledge of how they were created determined and destined to see their 'father' deposed. We know the 'prince program' was seen as a great shame and possibly has shocking/horrifying ramifications.

Would he then later switch sides to fight against his twisted, deviant father (just like the other clones/princes that wish to topple Zahard) which would then put him on his 'mother's' side?

Just saying.

 

[cash2088]

Appreciate the response. My thoughts.



And YET we see Snek now working WITH Baam. Is he controlled opposition, maybe. But he seems to think he's taking orders from a 'Boss' and not directly from Zahard (via internal monologue we see) - he seems to think they are separate entities. Also, they are working to free Baam's mentor, Jinsung, and find the missing painting piece, and network to build support for FUG... none of which would seem to be helpful to what Zahard is trying to do - stop Baam.



I don't remember him saying he was empowered by Zahard personally. But even if so perhaps his allegiances changed? We've seen that happen several times. Snek doesn't follow orders from the CC's or anything. They (Snek and Levi) seem to share a loose affiliation at this point - if at all. Snek could be a double-agent.



Not sure I'm clear - he's planning to betray... Baam (I assume that's what you mean)? Yet, Baam already has the drive to save his master he doesn't need someone pretending to help to drive him towards Jinsung. Further, recent dialogue suggests the Boss might not even trust Snek.

Although it's not out of the realm of possibility at all.



Thanks. I know you didn't read the whole thing but there are some very interesting similarities that Luslec would have and 'the Boss' has. And, as of now, a great deal of overlap in their motivations. It's also an interesting prospect that there existed princesses/princes prior to Zahard topping the tower. That opens up a realm of possibilities in how those that helped the climb might have later ended up on one end of the divide or the other - and we KNOW several 'princes' are anti-Zahard. It wouldn't be an anomaly at all to have yet another prince be working against Zahard. A prince that helped Zahard climb - as we are told Luslec did. And as that bio in the OP suggests the princesses also did.

And what ISN'T a theory (confirmed in 462 blog) is that the 'boss' that Snek listens to is one in the same as the one that met with Dowon long ago before she was sealed. Are you up to date on the chapter discussions? Because it's hard to talk about certain events without spoilers. Suffice to say that if 'the Boss' were to be against Baam he is providing Baam a lot of help rather than a quick blow against him if he were truly looking to put him down. The most circuitous betrayal possible given the most recent chapter IMO.

I will update this thread when the latest chapter sneak peak becomes an official chapter.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 20, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 19, 2020 ---

So your thought is that the OG13 merely passed the tests on their way to 143, then Zahard was offered kingship and had to basically work his way back down the tower to subjugate the floors? (which would take quite some time).

I suppose that's possible. Even probable. Though many more questions arise:

- Why would Zahard be offered kingship of the entire tower if he hadn't ALREADY wrestled control of the floors, all floors, from the admin?
- Why would the admin let them pass to the next floor if they hadn't been subjugated already? Doesn't it seem more intuitive that each floor was conquered on the way up, one at a time, and they Zahard stopped at 143 and said 'I own all this shit now below me' (except 1F)?
- What exactly does it mean that Zahard (& Co.) "gained control of the floors FROM the guardians. (some floors were conquered by his daughters)"? The usage of 'conquered' and 'gained control from' implies against their will. We know he cannot outright KILL admin, but he had to the power to subjugate them? Moreover, some princesses had the power to subjugate floor admin?!? Seems like it would take a power equal to or greater than an admin to do such - perhaps this has something to do with his internal monster (like Baam's blue thryssa). Can he loan that power to princesses (we know he can control them)?

We know the break with V/Arlen was after he became king, and also stopped continuing up the tower. But we weren't told how immediate that was or wasn't. Perhaps it took 100's or 1000's or years (pre-genesis? early genesis?) for them to come to blows. During which time Zahard was busy in conquest. Maybe they didn't see a true king having to conquer floors with force and upset the natural balance from the guardians. Whatever. Plenty of time for Luslec (whatever he was) to defect and then serve under V to fight against Zahard. More so if he were a former disgruntled employee pissed off clone/prince and not some rando without a dog in the fight blindly following V.




===================

Side note: I wouldn't be surprised if Karaka's uber-armor (comes in Zahard clone fit curiously enough!) wasn't from Luslec (either directly or through some other means) as 'the Boss' and a clone/prince. I mean, Luslec's armor was probably blessed by Arlen (said to have a strong spell - her specialty and many high-level spells/items are tied to her specifically) being he rubbed elbows with her and V against Zahard. It is too OP for how Karaka presents and clearly comes from some other person that is/was more capable (Karaka doesn't really deserve it). It has the ability to form a pocket dimension only accessible to the elite of the elite, and a form of immortality/preservation that Arlen would have been familiar with as well. And IF Luslec was a clone it would hint at some link with another clone (Karaka in this case) getting his armor through some sort of shared circumstances (Karaka raided daddy/brother [eww] Luslec's equipment room just like AA? Luslec, knowing what Karaka was/is, saw to it that he receive an item to keep him alive?). Maybe Luslec fought in that armor under V in the past - similar to Yas' subordinate (armor-cat, forget his name) that fights in similar armor or Khell's subordinate (Mule) that used similar armor. It would have also possibly served to hide his identity from others as a clone, and now he works from the shadows (Luslec is clearly working from the shadows several layers deep). Even if 'Boss' and Luslec are two separate beings It doesn't seem like 'Boss' wants his identity known. Face-covering armor would have served that purpose just like it does for Karaka. Though, I can't figure out why no one ever remarks that Wangnan looks like Zahard...

There is also the possibility that Karaka met 'the Boss' (secretly Luslec) and received his armor from him. To Wangnan, Karaka says "I will tell you everything if you show me the rings as proof. I can't tell you anything until then. Just like you, I only intend to tell the secret to those who have the ring."

This, to me, strongly implies Karaka has ALREADY met other clones or expects their existence. "Those" with the ring. Not "the other" with the ring. There is a plurality. And SIU's blog confirms other princes.

Maybe he was able to open up to the 'Boss'/Luslec (as one or the other or both) - he is shocked to find out the truth of his existence from someone that knows all the deets. Luslec/'the Boss' works to help his climb as he can sympathize with Karaka's plight and origins on a personal level. He tells him to hide his existence and 'only show his face to those he can absolutely trust' (why he won't even show it to his master, Jinsung. Or talk about it if Wangnan can't show him the actual ring). Gives him OP armor to help him rank/stay alive. Sends Jinsung to train him personally to make him into a Slayer. Basically cultivates another clone brother. And this is one reason why Luslec either didn't kill him or send Jinsung to kill him after disobeying his orders over Baam (the conspiring elder was killed instead).

Thus, maybe Jinsung knows who Luslec really is. Luslec, a secretly clone of Zahard, who knows about the boy from V/Arlen, and later tells Dowon prior to be sealed as 'the Boss'. Jinsung uses kid's gloves with Karaka (probably knowing more than he lets on - let's be honest Jinsung knows a whole hell of a lot). And Jinsung basically says to Mas 'girl, you don't even fucking know 'bout those ancient beings' to indicate just how fucked up the tower history is.

Or maybe Luslec hides his true identity from even Jinsung, but we know they talk at some level and Jinsung follows him without question.

===================

The 'Boss' of what exactly? An organization I would presume ('boss' implies an organization!). Hmmm, an organization hidden in shadows with high-level players/knowledge and with an anti-Zahard agenda and Z-clone leadership. Oh, I got it - a NEW elite organization with a clone at the helm that looks to dethrone Zahard, right? An (new) organization with such high-level knowledge that they are privy to where Jinsung is being held in super-max?? Move over FUG and WingTree. Yeah, right.

FFS, if not the 'Boss' of FUG then what??

===================

Oh, and much has been said about Luslec's name, Grace Mirchea Luslec, and the possible connection to Arlen Grace. Is Luslec her love child (not likely given the importance put on Baam)? Her brother (an thus an irregular - not likely)? Then what? The name connection does not seem to be accidental and is a strong hint at a connection. And Luslec, whatever his connection, obviously existed long ago before the splinter fight and Baam being born.

In this thread/theory he is neither, but he is still very much connected.... Zahard was OBSESSED with Arlen. Zahard ALSO created princesses and princes. Officially, the prince program didn't exist (obvious propaganda, b/c clearly it DID). And officially, the princess program was - or at least the fruits of it (princesses). Although princes also exist though they technically shouldn't by government propaganda standards. Princesses were from non-related girls. 'Princes' on the other hand SEEM to be clones and thus are seen more as actual 'children'.

So, what would your pet name be for the 'first-born' of your clandestine clone program - and your first-born 'son'? Especially if you know you can't have kids of your own, though you WANT kids with a certain someone...

And let's say you name that clone/son after your romantic obsession because you are imagining a life with his 'mother' in your sick head... and said clone finds out the truth later on? This is a very similar motivation - whatever the mechanics are - that Karaka has as a clone/prince. Possibly even Wangnan if he didn't block his memories. Clones sick of the knowledge of how they were created determined and destined to see their 'father' deposed. We know the 'prince program' was seen as a great shame and possibly has shocking/horrifying ramifications.

Would he then later switch sides to fight against his twisted, deviant father (just like the other clones/princes that wish to topple Zahard) which would then put him on his 'mother's' side?

Just saying.

Wow, it would be an interesting twist. The only thing that would need clarification would be whether Luslec was a native of the tower like Dowon.... If not it could conceivably be a clone, yet I do think Luslec was a warlord for V long before any prince program was enacted.

You can see they have the appearance of Young Zahard, so logic would dictate that as they grow older they’d look like Grown Up Zahard, I think their appearance is an indication of their age relative to Zahard’s..

Boss could very well be working close to Luslec. Or even, which remains consistent with your theory, joined V and Arlene’s cause after FOD (Boss of course) And has been a Luslec underling ever since. Rachel seems to know about Arlene and if Gustang was talking to Arlene when he gave Rachel the manta. IIRC he stated he didn’t know the plan for the girl but it was up to them... If It was Arlene Boss could’ve theoretically met her...

You put a lot of effort in connecting the dots... Let’s await the big reveal... If SIU gets to it in his lifetime....

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Realized I should probably put the pertinent blog quote:

"Dowon, attacks Baam while mentioning a Captain. Looking at the reason for attacking Baam, it seems Kel Hellam and Dowon are quite similar. That captain in the flash back... he's all covered up, but he looks a bit like Wangnan hehe. You've seen that face around often, huh haha. He looks a bit like the Zahard you saw from the hidden floor, so I hope you look forward to his identity."

Chapter - Tower of God Chapter 462 Spoilers & Discussion

Someone high up sees Rak using his ancient powers, capture and sell him to the Workshop or something. The Workshop ain't enemies with Baam yet are they? Rak just hope whoever sees him isn't in Jahad's army. Which is worse, lab rat or permanent curse? Maybe Maschenny will decide she needs a new...

mangahelpers.com

(will update when 466 goes live, but suffice to say, they are absolutely one and the same: 'the boss' that Snek follows and 'the captain' [probably the same word translated two different ways] that met with Dowon are the same person.

This means:

* Snek follows the same boss that Dowon met with/knows an ancient time period ago (he is very old and probably precedes even the empire)
* Snek is following what appears to be a Z clone that SIU says looks like Wangnan and data Z (that mole is there to indicate he's someone else)
* A Z clone is 'the boss' and helping Baam by proxy of Snek
* A Z clone is also facilitating Hockney find the missing painting piece, which helps find the thorn fragment, which helps power Baam to kill Zahard
* A Z clone knows where Jinsung is being held, specifically wants to help Baam spring him from the trap (we know not many are aware of where Jinsing is being held... this is very high-level intel - as is knowing about Baam being an irregular and the prophecy)
* The same Z clone anticipated Baam/knew about the prophecy, and passed it down
* The same active Z clone had already been well-traveled and presented as an 'adventurer' by the end of Genesis. (it is my assumption he told Dowon about climbing the tower... 'adventure' has always been a reference to this!)
* The same Z clone is around for Dowon to be awoken after meeting with her before being sealed
* The same Z clone helped Dowon calmly accept her fate until she could be of better use (when the child of prophecy comes). Moreover, he was AWARE she was to be sealed (more high-level intel) and met with her in a friendly, non-threatening manner. Same as you would meet with someone you want to be your associate.
* The same Z clone, arghhh, spoilers if I say it...

So, consider this. This is not speculation. There is an ANCIENT Z clone that was well-adventured (hinting at the great climb), was/is old enough to predate 'genesis' (or at least the end of it), anticipated Baam/knew of prophecy, works from the shadows, specifically avoids using his name, wants Jinsung free, has highest-level intel possible, controls underlings, assists in getting thorn fragments, funds Snek's ship, is a de facto LEADER ('boss'/captain... FUG boss?), and SIU is playing around with his true identity - hinting it's kind of a big deal.

Tell me that doesn't make you think about Luslec. And if, for some reason, it's not Luslec, he's arguably just as important if not more important than Luslec and we now have yet another faction in the tower other than FUG operating in the exact same manner with the exact same goal...

 

[cash2088]

Just imagine, V and his competitions clone fucking shit up!!!!

Lol would be crazy!

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 20, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 20, 2020 ---

Realized I should probably put the pertinent blog quote:

"Dowon, attacks Baam while mentioning a Captain. Looking at the reason for attacking Baam, it seems Kel Hellam and Dowon are quite similar. That captain in the flash back... he's all covered up, but he looks a bit like Wangnan hehe. You've seen that face around often, huh haha. He looks a bit like the Zahard you saw from the hidden floor, so I hope you look forward to his identity."

Chapter - Tower of God Chapter 462 Spoilers & Discussion

Someone high up sees Rak using his ancient powers, capture and sell him to the Workshop or something. The Workshop ain't enemies with Baam yet are they? Rak just hope whoever sees him isn't in Jahad's army. Which is worse, lab rat or permanent curse? Maybe Maschenny will decide she needs a new...

mangahelpers.com

(will update when 466 goes live, but suffice to say, they are absolutely one and the same: 'the boss' that Snek follows and 'the captain' [probably the same word translated two different ways] that met with Dowon are the same person.

This means:

* Snek follows the same boss that Dowon met with/knows an ancient time period ago (he is very old and probably precedes even the empire)
* Snek is following what appears to be a Z clone that SIU says looks like Wangnan and data Z (that mole is there to indicate he's someone else)
* A Z clone is 'the boss' and helping Baam by proxy of Snek
* A Z clone is also facilitating Hockney find the missing painting piece, which helps find the thorn fragment, which helps power Baam to kill Zahard
* A Z clone knows where Jinsung is being held, specifically wants to help Baam spring him from the trap (we know not many are aware of where Jinsing is being held... this is very high-level intel - as is knowing about Baam being an irregular and the prophecy)
* The same Z clone anticipated Baam/knew about the prophecy, and passed it down
* The same active Z clone had already been well-traveled and presented as an 'adventurer' by the end of Genesis. (it is my assumption he told Dowon about climbing the tower... 'adventure' has always been a reference to this!)
* The same Z clone is around for Dowon to be awoken after meeting with her before being sealed
* The same Z clone helped Dowon calmly accept her fate until she could be of better use (when the child of prophecy comes). Moreover, he was AWARE she was to be sealed (more high-level intel) and met with her in a friendly, non-threatening manner. Same as you would meet with someone you want to be your associate.
* The same Z clone, arghhh, spoilers if I say it...

So, consider this. This is not speculation. There is an ANCIENT Z clone that was well-adventured (hinting at the great climb), was/is old enough to predate 'genesis' (or at least the end of it), anticipated Baam/knew of prophecy, works from the shadows, specifically avoids using his name, wants Jinsung free, has highest-level intel possible, controls underlings, assists in getting thorn fragments, funds Snek's ship, is a de facto LEADER ('boss'/captain... FUG boss?), and SIU is playing around with his true identity - hinting it's kind of a big deal.

Tell me that doesn't make you think about Luslec. And if, for some reason, it's not Luslec, he's arguably just as important if not more important than Luslec and we now have yet another faction in the tower other than FUG operating in the exact same manner with the exact same goal...

This was a question I had, captain could’ve been LPB Crazy green eyed snake Anima.... Snek following would seem logical... But the blog indicated its Boss.... hmmmmmm

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 20, 2020 ---

Great catch!

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Wow, it would be an interesting twist.

Yes, indeed. I feel like SIU is telegraphing something, at least like this. I think it will be crystal clear the clues in hindsight.

The only thing that would need clarification would be whether Luslec was a native of the tower like Dowon.... If not it could conceivably be a clone, yet I do think Luslec was a warlord for V long before any prince program was enacted.

Ah! But here's the thing - it doesn't say WHEN Luslec was a warlord under V... just that he was one (WHEN did he serve under V?). What was he before that is the question as you point out. And, as the bio on Zahard points out, IF the princesses were helping Zahard conquer it is not impossible that the prince program had already been operational too, creating Z clones to aid in the climb/conquering. In theory he could have been a clone and still serving under V on the way up if the clones were operational wayyyy back then. (checks out with 'Boss' being well-experienced when he met Dowon in Genesis and the bio indicating princess program was operational basically in/before genesis)

You can see they have the appearance of Young Zahard, so logic would dictate that as they grow older they’d look like Grown Up Zahard, I think their appearance is an indication of their age relative to Zahard’s..

How old would a clone looks that was born halfway up the tower (growing up long after Zahard entered) and was created prior to all floors being conquered look once they ranked (locking in the age he ranked)? Why, he'd look YOUNGER than Zahard! Even if he ranked alongside Zahard, his clone would forever look younger...

Boss could very well be working close to Luslec. Or even, which remains consistent with your theory, joined V and Arlene’s cause after FOD (Boss of course) And has been a Luslec underling ever since.

Good point - but then he wouldn't be a 'boss' or 'captain' would he? More like a VC or LT if that were the case. While he could be an underling, I don't think the nickname works. And he seems to be a shot-caller. He also seems to be theoretically old enough to be a Luslec contemporary.

Rachel seems to know about Arlene and if Gustang was talking to Arlene when he gave Rachel the manta. IIRC he stated he didn’t know the plan for the girl but it was up to them... If It was Arlene Boss could’ve theoretically met her...

TBH, I'm not exactly sure what you mean about Gustang talking to Arlen when he gave Rachel the manta?? But this 'boss' certainly does know of Arlen, is old enough to have met her, and knows about her son!

You put a lot of effort in connecting the dots... Let’s await the big reveal... If SIU gets to it in his lifetime....

Yeah, well, that's the kicker isn't it? Danke

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 20, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 20, 2020 ---

Ah, nvm, I can update as soon as 465 goes live, not 466.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 20, 2020 ---

@cash2088 go read the beginning of 465, then compare that to what was said by SIU in the 462 blog. I think that will solidify some things for you. Can't exactly talk about it yet.

 

[toil]

So your thought is that the OG13 merely passed the tests on their way to 143, then Zahard was offered kingship and had to basically work his way back down the tower to subjugate the floors? (which would take quite some time).

Yes, that's the scenario I have in mind. In a bit more detail, pre-Zahard my picture of the tower is each floor being much more of a world unto itself, and behaving more like what we see in the hidden floor: each level in the hidden floor is "self-contained", with—at most—the occasional group of pilgrims passing through (so to speak).

Zahard's getting granted kingship is just his getting granted some formal title (and some corresponding cooperation from the tower, though we're unclear what it means at this time). Building out the infrastructure of that kingdom, instituting and staffing the imperial bureaucracy, and establishing political and military control over the hundred-plus floors, etc., would've been a longer process playing out over hundreds if not thousands of years.

- Why would Zahard be offered kingship of the entire tower if he hadn't ALREADY wrestled control of the floors, all floors, from the admin?

What Zahard's kingship means, exactly, remains a mystery (as does the "why grant kingship to him?" issue).

- Why would the admin let them pass to the next floor if they hadn't been subjugated already? Doesn't it seem more intuitive that each floor was conquered on the way up, one at a time, and they Zahard stopped at 143 and said 'I own all this shit now below me' (except 1F)?

AIUI irregulars can demand a test from the admins—it's just how the tower works. Why that's how the tower works and all related/derivative questions remain mysteries, so far as I know.

- What exactly does it mean that Zahard (& Co.) "gained control of the floors FROM the guardians. (some floors were conquered by his daughters)"? The usage of 'conquered' and 'gained control from' implies against their will. We know he cannot outright KILL admin, but he had to the power to subjugate them? Moreover, some princesses had the power to subjugate floor admin?!? Seems like it would take a power equal to or greater than an admin to do such

If you take what you're citing as describing "gained control from the previous floor rulers" this mystery seems to evaporate.

As much as I hate to appeal to confused mistranslation, I have to wonder if the issue here isn't just confusion between what's currently called "administrator and floor ruler" and used to be called "guardian and ...(I forget the previous term—was it administrator?)".

- perhaps this has something to do with his internal monster (like Baam's blue thryssa). Can he loan that power to princesses (we know he can control them)?

If the mistranslation/confusion explanation isn't the answer I agree something like this could be the reason—there's a whole sub-plot/sub-mechanic around these demons we haven't (yet) begun to explore.

Final remark: I think V is a reasonable long-shot surprise candidate for Luslec.

What if V just...faked his death...hid out for awhile...and then got back into the game, but under an assumed identity?

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

I guess this is just one of those things where translations make a world of difference then. Because if they truly subjugated ADMIN themselves that could change everything. It also has relevance as to why they'd let them pass with just a test - I was under the impression that was the system set up AFTER Zahard and Co. topped the tower and created a system for regulars to gain ranker status. Truly, if it is just a matter of floor rulers being bested this whole thing is NBD. I can only go on what the provided trans says for the time being. Not like SIU holds true to those old bios in every case anyways...

 

[toil]

I guess this is just one of those things where translations make a world of difference then. Because if they truly subjugated ADMIN themselves that could change everything. It also has relevance as to why they'd let them pass with just a test - I was under the impression that was the system set up AFTER Zahard and Co. topped the tower and created a system for regulars to gain ranker status. Truly, if it is just a matter of floor rulers being bested this whole thing is NBD. I can only go on what the provided trans says for the time being. Not like SIU holds true to those old bios in every case anyways...

Understood, and I agree—I hate appealing to "confusion or mistranslation", but as a very long-time reader I remember the early English fan translations calling translating administrators as guardians and IIRC describing YHS's role on 2F as a "test administrator". I forget if EVK's separate role (as not just a test admin but also as what we now call floor ruler) was even mentioned by name back then (let alone how it was translated, if it was). I only mention it here b/c of how simply stipulating "that should be floor-ruler" makes so much sense.

And, of course, how much old lore is still operative now is an open question. I tend to treat it as still very indicative of what SIU had in mind for story concept but as generally-unreliable at any granular level of detail, but that's just...my opinion.

I was under the impression that was the system set up AFTER Zahard and Co. topped the tower and created a system for regulars to gain ranker status

I have the same impression, but as far as I know what it all means remains a bit vague (and that's why I was a bit loose earlier about "maybe some pilgrims pass through from time to time)."

What I'm saying is my impression is that the "climbing system" in its current form is something introduced only after Zahard became king. What's basically unknown—so far as I know—is what things were really like before that, and thus how much of the current system is actually a change from the prior system (if there was one).

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Generally agreed.

But one thing we do know as fact is that no regular could rank before Zahard came through. It would seem you couldn't just walk up to an admin unless you were an irregular and ask for a test to climb up. No one could climb up; all floor residents were stationary.

This strongly implies there were no tests, nor administrators. Possibly floor rulers too, though that's a reach and not assumed. But at least the tests did not seem to exist pre-Zahard.

Consistently though it does seem to be different for regulars and irregulars when it comes to tests and climbing. Regulars (at the time) certainly couldn't (unless accompanied by an adult irregular). But perhaps the irregulars just got a pass without entire floor domination/subjugation since they are from outside tower jurisdiction.

I guess it checks out. Still would like to know if they were beating down (stopping short of being able to KILL) the admin, or just native floor rulers. The later makes much, much more sense. Someone like your Molic's or whatever.

 

[toil]

Personally I lean towards basically Zahard's grant of kingship including the introduction of the regular-and-ranker system. I don't know why, or for what purpose, but I'd speculate it was part of the bargain. Maybe not something he'd really object to, but still nothing he'd do solely on his own initiative (my guess).

I doubt it's as simple as "you can be king of the NPCs as long as you (selectively) let some of them have a taste of the 'PC experience'", but I suspect something like that sentiment will be part of the picture.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

It would seem he would want to do everything he can to stop dangers to the tower (moreover, himself, not the tower itself per se), particularly irregulars from coming up. See: what he THOUGHT was happening at 2F - that they were a 'sieve' to capture dangers, when in reality FUG was running a scheme to find the next threats for themselves under the guise of 'neutralizing' them.

So, perhaps there was some demand there. 'If you want to run the tower, we're gonna need you to set up floor rulers (?), test admin, testing facilities, etc as a system so everyone else can rank as well. Part of being a king is your duties to the system.' I doubt Zahard was just bored and thought it was a great idea.

And the 'chosen regulars' are chosen by Headon, at his whim, for who knows what reasons. It doesn't seem to be for or against Zahard. Headon has chosen many people that are anti-Zahard of course.

 

[Echizen_Akira]

Didn't read the entire thing because of spoilers, so maybe this was addressed, but my reason for thinking it's not the case is simply that Luslec was said to help them climb. I don't see how he could be of much help if he was born/created? after they entered. He presumably wouldn't be allowed in the inner tower to take tests. If irregulars can invite others to climb, surely he would've had to start at floor 1 and then catch up to them at floor 80 where the Lore claims he was born.

If the Lore didn't exist I might believe this, and sometimes the Lore is retconned,(yama's past) so it is of course a possibility. Though it frustrates me to no end when SIU does that.

I personally still think the princes are all discarded pieces of Jahad himself. Wangnan his weakness, Karaka his wrath/anger and now the boss his childlike adventurous spirit.

 

[kkck]

Luslec is supposed to have climbed the tower along with the 13 warriors... He most certainly precedes the princes and princesses by a very long time.

 

[TheLastMartian]

Wow, it would be an interesting twist. The only thing that would need clarification would be whether Luslec was a native of the tower like Dowon.... If not it could conceivably be a clone, yet I do think Luslec was a warlord for V long before any prince program was enacted.

You can see they have the appearance of Young Zahard, so logic would dictate that as they grow older they’d look like Grown Up Zahard, I think their appearance is an indication of their age relative to Zahard’s..

Boss could very well be working close to Luslec. Or even, which remains consistent with your theory, joined V and Arlene’s cause after FOD (Boss of course) And has been a Luslec underling ever since. Rachel seems to know about Arlene and if Gustang was talking to Arlene when he gave Rachel the manta. IIRC he stated he didn’t know the plan for the girl but it was up to them... If It was Arlene Boss could’ve theoretically met her...

You put a lot of effort in connecting the dots... Let’s await the big reveal... If SIU gets to it in his lifetime....

My theory on this is that at a certain higher floor the Guardian allows people who pass his test change their appearance.