Predictions Ja Wangnan is THE/A 'Prince of Zahard' (NOT Baam) ver. Change My Mind

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Because data eduan said v was the one that made the most sense as king.

He said he'd have 'preferred' him. In no way does this mean he was meant to be king. In no way does this mean he was wanting to be king. There was never even an implication it was up for a vote or that Eduan was stating anything other than an opinion.

The little we know about V says the opposite - that him and Arlen weren't happy with stopping and naming a king, but rather continuing adventuring up the tower and possibly out.

 

[kkck]

He said he'd have 'preferred' him. In no way does this mean he was meant to be king. In no way does this mean he was wanting to be king. There was never even an implication it was up for a vote or that Eduan was stating anything other than an opinion.

The little we know about V says the opposite - that him and Arlen weren't happy with stopping and naming a king, but rather continuing adventuring up the tower and possibly out.

So... just disregard that? what eduan said and what we saw during the hidden floor definitely is an insanely important bit of context. We learned that zahard was an adventurer, someone who back then wouldn't have even cared about ruling. Add to that their overall uninterest in tower residents. Meanwhile you had V who actually cared about tower residents. And sure, there is plenty of room for shenanigans here but still the context suggests that if anyone should have been king its not zahard but rather V.

And there is also the fact that most of the second season is about bam's journey, not wangnan's. the hell train is basically about bam resurfacing as a threat to the empire as a whole. Wangnan got sidelined in most arcs.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

So... just disregard that? what eduan said and what we saw during the hidden floor definitely is an insanely important bit of context. We learned that zahard was an adventurer, someone who back then wouldn't have even cared about ruling. Add to that their overall uninterest in tower residents. Meanwhile you had V who actually cared about tower residents. And sure, there is plenty of room for shenanigans here but still the context suggests that if anyone should have been king its not zahard but rather V.

No. That's the opposite of the context we have. We only have Eduan's opinion about who would have been better - as in "well, if we HAD to have a king I'd rather it had been V, oh well...". What, was he going to crown V against his will? Zahard clearly lost his sense of adventure - or his desire to rule an empire rule out. What little we know of V is that he didn't want a king (at all) - he didn't want to stop. Arlen and V wanted to keep adventuring and climbing the tower. It is literally the reason they fought Zahard for the key - so they could go up. We have ZERO to extrapolate Eduan's commentary to thinking V is 'supposed' to be king. V hasn't been shown to have wanted that - rather, the complete opposite. Eduan's commentary does not mean V wanted to be king, wanted a king at all, threw his hat in the ring, would have won, had the 'votes', had the strength, would have had Arlen's support - nada. It just means V was more empathetic/sympathetic to the tower's residents than Zahard was. In fact, maybe having a king at all would be too oppressive and V would have preferred a democracy or anarchy even. That seems to be preferable for someone that literally started a war because one of the 13 stopped adventuring and instead decided to rule over the tower rather than keep climbing...

V has shown the opposite of kingly ambitions, period. Unless SIU changes his story we cannot say he was 'meant' to be king. That is antithetical to his character.

I've said this before, but if I said Ron Paul would have made a better president of the USA than Trump that doesn't mean RP was 'meant' to be president, wanted it in the 2016 election, would have run, would have won, had the votes, etc. I just think he'd be a better candidate - that's my opinion.

And there is also the fact that most of the second season is about bam's journey, not wangnan's. the hell train is basically about bam resurfacing as a threat to the empire as a whole. Wangnan got sidelined in most arcs.

So, I guess you've now given up on the prologue being about Baam when it was about Wangnan since you have pivoted to the entire arc.

Go back and reread the first post in this thread.... Wangnan is destined for greatness. Don't take my word for it - read what SIU has said in multiple blogs about how important Wangnan is. Wangnan isn't meant to 'shine' and he's a 'sleeper' character. That is how SIU made him. Now with his mysterious power in the sword of fate something big will happen, in time, with him. SIU has made that much clear.

You could say most of the first and third seasons are about Baam as well. It doesn't detract from the point that Ja is the prince of Zahard, or that he is a super-important character in the story overall (literally a story axis), or that he started climbing again after "a long, long time" to use SIU's words (he was completely off the map/radar by all intents and purposes - Ja is very very old yet still stuck on floor 20 for the most of that time... until season two). Baam was 'gone' for a few years tops, and not to the tower, FUG, or the ranks, or the reader. Ja is literally introduced in S2 ad the prologue is about him and the title of that chapter is in reference to him... this title is different from the arc title, but similar (people seem to keep conflating the two). But it makes it beyond clear that Ja is the prince of Zahard. 'The episode of the prince of Zahard'. - title of the prologue/chapter. 'return of the prince' - title of the arc WHERE WANGNAN IS INTRODUCED.

 

[Echizen_Akira]

Baam's return wouldn't be from the 5 years he was missing, it would be from the thousands since Arlene took his dead body out of the tower. And since 5 years is nothing in the tower, it wouldn't be a surprise if it took that long for someone to take notice of his return, or simply took that long to confirm he was who they believed him to be.

Even though personally I think Wangnan is who is being referenced, he could very easily be a misdirect. SIU himself has stated the info in his blogs isn't cannon until it appears in the manhwa, things can change, such as Yama's backstory.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Yes, and, as stated many times, that 'return' occurred in S1. Not S2. Who was introduced in S2? Who was the prologue named after?

Not to mention 'those in the know' knew who Baam was and that he had arrived in S1. FUG via Luslec, Yuri (partially), Headon, maybe YHS, Gustang, Garam, etc. Probably even Repellista as she seems to have known about Yuri's search for him - and how exactly did Yuri find out an irregular came to the tower?

So if you are the type of resident that even knew the story about Baam/V/Arlen then you would recognize that he was scheduled to return. You'd have recognized his return already.

Though it's difficult making predictions when SIU can change what he says in blogs.

 

[Echizen_Akira]

Jyu Viole Grace was introduced in season 2. To us it's just a new name, but it could be Baam's original name, his return as his true self so to speak.

Like I said, I believe it's Wangnan, I'm just trying to look at it through other perspectives. Even if it's thinking "zebras" instead of "horses" you never know.

 

[kkck]

No. That's the opposite of the context we have. We only have Eduan's opinion about who would have been better - as in "well, if we HAD to have a king I'd rather it had been V, oh well...". What, was he going to crown V against his will? Zahard clearly lost his sense of adventure - or his desire to rule an empire rule out. What little we know of V is that he didn't want a king (at all) - he didn't want to stop. Arlen and V wanted to keep adventuring and climbing the tower. It is literally the reason they fought Zahard for the key - so they could go up. We have ZERO to extrapolate Eduan's commentary to thinking V is 'supposed' to be king. V hasn't been shown to have wanted that - rather, the complete opposite. Eduan's commentary does not mean V wanted to be king, wanted a king at all, threw his hat in the ring, would have won, had the 'votes', had the strength, would have had Arlen's support - nada. It just means V was more empathetic/sympathetic to the tower's residents than Zahard was. In fact, maybe having a king at all would be too oppressive and V would have preferred a democracy or anarchy even. That seems to be preferable for someone that literally started a war because one of the 13 stopped adventuring and instead decided to rule over the tower rather than keep climbing...

V has shown the opposite of kingly ambitions, period. Unless SIU changes his story we cannot say he was 'meant' to be king. That is antithetical to his character.

I've said this before, but if I said Ron Paul would have made a better president of the USA than Trump that doesn't mean RP was 'meant' to be president, wanted it in the 2016 election, would have run, would have won, had the votes, etc. I just think he'd be a better candidate - that's my opinion.

So, I guess you've now given up on the prologue being about Baam when it was about Wangnan since you have pivoted to the entire arc.

Go back and reread the first post in this thread.... Wangnan is destined for greatness. Don't take my word for it - read what SIU has said in multiple blogs about how important Wangnan is. Wangnan isn't meant to 'shine' and he's a 'sleeper' character. That is how SIU made him. Now with his mysterious power in the sword of fate something big will happen, in time, with him. SIU has made that much clear.

You could say most of the first and third seasons are about Baam as well. It doesn't detract from the point that Ja is the prince of Zahard, or that he is a super-important character in the story overall (literally a story axis), or that he started climbing again after "a long, long time" to use SIU's words (he was completely off the map/radar by all intents and purposes - Ja is very very old yet still stuck on floor 20 for the most of that time... until season two). Baam was 'gone' for a few years tops, and not to the tower, FUG, or the ranks, or the reader. Ja is literally introduced in S2 ad the prologue is about him and the title of that chapter is in reference to him... this title is different from the arc title, but similar (people seem to keep conflating the two). But it makes it beyond clear that Ja is the prince of Zahard. 'The episode of the prince of Zahard'. - title of the prologue/chapter. 'return of the prince' - title of the arc WHERE WANGNAN IS INTRODUCED.

That is definitely not how the conversation played out. Bam asked about V and eduan pretty much started with V being the one more suitable to be king. And then with the bit about how very interested in tower residents V was while zahard and the others weren't. Of course, we don't know if V "wanted" to be king but putting together most of the stuff we have heard at a minimum the implication is that V was the one who was supposed to be king. Of course, that is different from V "wanting" to be king... But that is a different issue.


It's not a pivot, i've said several times throught he thread that season 2 is still overall about bam and him discovering his heritage and whatnot. This isn't different from anything I've said before. Wangnan is clearly a prince of zahard. And bam is a prince in a different context. Return of the prince isn't just the prologue, its the title of season 2. Wangnan is an important character in season 2 but the metaplot is still largely about bam, far more than it ever was about wangnan at least. It wouldn't make sense that a season called "the return of the prince" suddenly stopped featuring the prince its talking about when things got good. Wangnan was barely part of the plot after hoaquin showed up after all.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

That is definitely not how the conversation played out. Bam asked about V and eduan pretty much started with V being the one more suitable to be king. And then with the bit about how very interested in tower residents V was while zahard and the others weren't. Of course, we don't know if V "wanted" to be king but putting together most of the stuff we have heard at a minimum the implication is that V was the one who was supposed to be king. Of course, that is different from V "wanting" to be king... But that is a different issue.

lol, a different issue? How could V have 'meant' to be the king if he didn't even want to be? Which, we know, he didn't want to be... It's the SAME issue.

Eduan is just saying V would have been less of a tyrant. It's just an opinion. Hell, he's not even 1/3 up the tower at the point he's making these commentaries. You are reading WAY too far into what is being said. And the idea that V is 'meant' to be the king is contradictory to the flashback we have and the story we have - so far - from Garam about V and Arlen being AGAINST stopping and setting up shop but instead continuing on up the tower.

What is "putting together most of the stuff we have heard at a minimum" in reference to? You're taking one quote by Eduan - which was about V's character not ambitions - and twisting it into something that's opposite of what we see actually played out.

As of right now, V was in no way 'meant' to be the king in any way.

It's not a pivot,

It's a pivot if you've repeatedly stated in three previous posts that Wangnan wasn't in the prologue, which he most assuredly was. Do you at least now see how Wangnan is the titular focus of the prologue? Which is named after Wangnan?

i've said several times throught he thread that season 2 is still overall about bam and him discovering his heritage and whatnot.

Yes - same as Wangnan.

This isn't different from anything I've said before. Wangnan is clearly a prince of zahard. And bam is a prince in a different context.

No. In no context is Baam a prince. Not any we've seen so far. If you want to imagine that he's a prince or speculate he is, that's fine. But we have ZERO evidence of that so far.

Return of the prince isn't just the prologue, its the title of season 2.

Again, I keep mentioning the TITLE of the chapter/prologue (which is different, but similar to the arc title), which you either gloss over or keep missing.

Wangnan is an important character in season 2 but the metaplot is still largely about bam, far more than it ever was about wangnan at least.

It doesn't have to focus on Wangnan more than Baam for the title to be accurate. This is a rule that you seem to have created. I've mentioned this before - Return of the King is a book by JRRT that references Aragorn in the actual title itself, and yet the movie primarily focuses on Frodo and his plight. I even posted the total on-screen time counters and Frodo has twice that of Aragorn - in a movie titled after the later.

It wouldn't make sense that a season called "the return of the prince" suddenly stopped featuring the prince its talking about when things got good. Wangnan was barely part of the plot after hoaquin showed up after all.

Again.... this was an introduction to Wangnan, not the be-all, end-all story with every detail ever about him. SIU has been CLEAR - Wangnan is beyond just casually important - he's one of if not THE most important character in the story. He just hasn't been fully fleshed out yet.

 

[kkck]

lol, a different issue? How could V have 'meant' to be the king if he didn't even want to be? Which, we know, he didn't want to be... It's the SAME issue.

Eduan is just saying V would have been less of a tyrant. It's just an opinion. Hell, he's not even 1/3 up the tower at the point he's making these commentaries. You are reading WAY too far into what is being said. And the idea that V is 'meant' to be the king is contradictory to the flashback we have and the story we have - so far - from Garam about V and Arlen being AGAINST stopping and setting up shop but instead continuing on up the tower.

What is "putting together most of the stuff we have heard at a minimum" in reference to? You're taking one quote by Eduan - which was about V's character not ambitions - and twisting it into something that's opposite of what we see actually played out.

As of right now, V was in no way 'meant' to be the king in any way.

It's a pivot if you've repeatedly stated in three previous posts that Wangnan wasn't in the prologue, which he most assuredly was. Do you at least now see how Wangnan is the titular focus of the prologue? Which is named after Wangnan?

Yes - same as Wangnan.

No. In no context is Baam a prince. Not any we've seen so far. If you want to imagine that he's a prince or speculate he is, that's fine. But we have ZERO evidence of that so far.

Again, I keep mentioning the TITLE of the chapter/prologue (which is different, but similar to the arc title), which you either gloss over or keep missing.

It doesn't have to focus on Wangnan more than Baam for the title to be accurate. This is a rule that you seem to have created. I've mentioned this before - Return of the King is a book by JRRT that references Aragorn in the actual title itself, and yet the movie primarily focuses on Frodo and his plight. I even posted the total on-screen time counters and Frodo has twice that of Aragorn - in a movie titled after the later.

Again.... this was an introduction to Wangnan, not the be-all, end-all story with every detail ever about him. SIU has been CLEAR - Wangnan is beyond just casually important - he's one of if not THE most important character in the story. He just hasn't been fully fleshed out yet.

So.... the only way V could have been meant to be a king is that he wanted to be a king? That's a pretty big assumption. There are a ton of ways the plot could play out so that V could have been meant to be king of the tower in spite of not wanting to.

You are trying to make it sound like eduan's comments about v being the one most fit to be king does not provide a gigantic bit of context.

The prologue isn't named after wangnan though. It simply ends with " Season 2:The return of the prince begins" but that simply means the title of season two is the return of the prince. And repellista was probably referring to wangnan of course but the overall chapter is actually about yuri asking repelista to find bam. which goes back to my original point that "return of the prince" refers to both wangnan and bam.

But there is a pretty big difference between this and LOTRs. Aragorn did return as a king. he has major plot points in the story and a pivotal role in the plots outcome. Meanwhile wangnan here just... kinda faded out of the plot halfway through. As in, he wasn't part of the plot during the name hunt station, wasn't important during the floor of death, did even less than rachel during the hidden floor and spent pretty much most of the last station arc trapped and worthless. Wangnan is a prince of zahard but he didn't seem to do any "returning" during the "return of the prince" part of the story. Unless the payoff of this was supposed to be him meeting karaka at the end... only for him to simply climb down 20 floors to where hyorang is. Sure, the title doesn't specifically require more focus on wangnan than on bam but the issue here is that the overall season barely focused on wangnan at all, specially towards the end.

I am not saying wangnan isn't important, of course he is important. but... come on, there is no way wangnan is even as important as bam. Nothing happened in the entirety of season 2 to justify wangnan being as important as bam, let alone more important than him. Wangnan could easily and reasonably be the second most important character to the plot but based on how the the plot has actually turned out it'd still be weird if he was ahead of rachel in this regard. Seriously, just see how this looks... According to your logic the second season, which according to SIU was going to be the longest season, is named exclusively for wangnan. And over it the most important stuff he did was.... Passing the 20th floor test, get his regeneration ability hyped once or twice, swear revenge on rachel and find a sword. And revenge on rachel stuff is kinda irrelevant because who the hell hasn't swore that at this point. The hell train portion of the second season is obviously the most important and content packed one and wangnan did pretty much nothing over it. He was absent pretty much most of the time. This would like like if TROTK ended without aragorn being crowned.

 

[Arjuna]

I also agree with your theory that Wagnan is the prince of Zahard bit whether he has his blood or a clone or a biological child remains to be seen but yeah completely agree with your theory.


And the season 2 title refers to both Wagnan and Baam in my opinion.

 

[King Dryst]

if not THE most important character in the story.

Naw, bruh. That is and always has been Baam. Wangnan just tries really hard to be like him and fails miserably at it.

And revenge on rachel stuff is kinda irrelevant because who the hell hasn't swore that at this point.

It's the only reason she manages to retain any relevance at all: because Baam's friends won't stop griefing about her even though he himself could no longer give half a shit about her.

But there is a pretty big difference between this and LOTRs. Aragorn did return as a king. he has major plot points in the story and a pivotal role in the plots outcome. Meanwhile wangnan here just... kinda faded out of the plot halfway through.

Not even halfway. He was a decoy protagonist for one episode before SIU pulled the all too obvious reveal on Viole's identity, and then Baam retook his place in the narrative and has never ceded the spotlight again since. Wangnan was just there after that, half the time not even being the leader of his own team.

I do wonder if that was a result of fans clamoring to have Baam back, even though he never really went anywhere. I at least recall that being my reaction during the early chapters of S2. I wanted nothing to do with the replacement goldfish.

 

[Wha]

here have been hints of wangnan belonging to one of the 12 great families via his toughness and durability.

Yihwa Yeon lost control and roasted all of the regulars taking the test with her flames, including wangnan. Only wangnan survived. Later during the workshop battle beta literally stuck his arm through wangnan's chest. It likely went right through his heart and should have been fatal. Wangnan shrugged it off without much trouble. Wangnan suffers from survivor's guilt. Close friends like akraptor die while wangnan survives. That toughness and durability could hint at wangnan being a son of zahard.

Completely agree, except for the last part. I am not sure if the ones with the ring are all of the "red light district". They are related to Zahard in some way, but maybe Karaka is the prince of the "blue light district" - like Horyang & Cassano are the Devils of the left & right arm.

?

The connection between wangnan and karaka is due to karaka wearing an identical ring with zahard's symbol on it. Initially wangnan tells karaka he never knew his mother, only his nanny. Later karaka hints at wangnan's nanny being wangnan's biological mother. Wangnan and zahard share a similar apperance as well.

Like i said, i don't disagree on that part. I believe Wangnan to be connected to Zahard. Like Karaka. All i am saying is that i am not sure if Karaka is also a prince of the red light district. Maybe there were "different Princes for different districts". Maybe not. Maybe there are / were more like them. Maybe not. I don't know.

It has also been hinted that karaka's armored form is not his true body, which his minions were guarding. His true appearance and personality could resemble wangnan and zahard.

Why do you think that Wangnan and Zahard have a similar personality?
Yes, Karaka might look similar.

"Red light" district is english slang for a part of town known for prostitution and adult entertainment.

You are correct. That doesn't mean that it means the exact same thing in tower of god.
Even if it does, that doesn't have to mean that every guy with a ring has to be a prince of the red light district.

 

[Madelin]

@Wha : "Then Zahard (or his power) appears and again, Bam is called son of Arlene, not son of V. Why? Why does Siu keep doing this? "

To answer this statement by Wha

Example - a person that knows my mom more than he know my dad would refer me as son of my mom.

A person that knows my dad more would refer me as son of my dad.

No conspiracy whatsoever

---------------------------------

@Wha : "For Luslec, the commander of V's forces, knowing stuff like that would be like Adori, the commander of Zahard's forces, knowing about the hidden meaning behind the princess system......do you think she knows?"

You're comparing an apple with watermelon. The duration of whats had transpired is vastly difference between the two comparison

Luslec - He was a warlord for V, together climbing the tower, wages war together, lost the war together, witness the attempt of erasing Arlene and V from history.

It is only logical for him to know about Baam and his heritage.

Adori - She is a princess and not even the earliest princess. She should has little clue of what had transpired way before her timeline (ancient wars of the family far predates her timeline)

 

[Wha]

o answer this statement by Wha

Example - a person that knows my mom more than he know my dad would refer me as son of my mom.

A person that knows my dad more would refer me as son of my dad.

No conspiracy whatsoever

The main thing for my theory is that neither Gustang nor Zahard nor garam called Bam son of V, Gustang being the most obivous. He could have just said something like "i won't talk about V". But he decides to say " i won't talk about your father". Kepp in mind that this is Siu. So why did he do that if he wanted to be clear? Unless he didn't want to be clear. Which raises the question why he didn#t want to be clear. He never confirmed it in one of his blog posts, or i missed something. All he needed to do is Zahard saying something like "you sure resemble V", or "Son of V & Arlene". But no.

When he meets Gustang, he greets him as the son of Arlene, like Garam. Bam asks him about his father. Gustang avoids the question, Siu let Gustang avoid the question.

Your example isn't exactly right. Add to it that you ask the friend of your mother about your father (or the other way around) and if they avoid the question, you wouldn't find it strange, like it's normal? Doesn't have to mean that your dad isn't your Dad, but something shouldn't be alright.

You're comparing an apple with watermelon.

No, i am comparing a commander of an Irregular to a commander of an Irregular. Maybe the one apple is more ripe than the other, but they are both apples.

Luslec - He was a warlord for V, together climbing the tower, wages war together, lost the war together, witness the attempt of erasing Arlene and V from history.

It is only logical for him to know about Baam and his heritage.

We don't know what exactly went down during that time. Our information regarding this "irregular war" is very limited, we don't even know what Luslec witnessed and what not. We do know that he was a warlord of V. We do know that he shares Arlenes last name. Apart from that, their isn't really much information.


It is logical for him to know what was told to him. I don't know what exactly he knows, although it should be quite a lot, i agree. But a lot is not the same as everything.

And the main point is that it is assumed that Luslec is the one that told Hansung, not confirmed (in any way) - so we can't even be sure if it matters what he knows and what he does not know.

Adori - She is a princess and not even the earliest princess. She should has little clue of what had transpired way before her timeline (ancient wars of the family far predates her timeline)

Like already explained with Luslec - we don't know what Zahard / someone else told her or not.
She shouldn't know things way before her timeline? But Hansung (Data Hansung) should know? And he is the one that told Data Edhuan. And they are the only ones that ever called Bam Son of V.

 

[Anzeer]

Why can't be karaka the prince of zahard ?

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

bump @Aliblack - if you like Wangnang...