Society What is your opinion of the Trayvon Martin case and verdict?

[weixiaobao]

I did not mean to imply that Zimmerman would be incapable of crying for help, I meant that I didn't understand why a guy, who obviously had an upper-hand in any sort of physical altercation by having a gun, would put himself in that position in the first place. It not only makes me question his motivation, it makes me question his sanity.

Are we clear now?

Urghh, so what is his motivation?? So tonight is a good night to hunt down and shoot a black guy??

Zimmerman is an instigator in this whole conflict. Whether or not Zimmerman planned for this physical alteration is unknown. More likely than not he didn't. Nor do I believe he planned to use the gun (as in shooting) on Trayvon as the initiation of the meeting. The gun was used as a last resort because Zimmerman truly feel that his life is in danger. You are correct to point out what I what repeatedly said that Stand you Ground mentality is not running away. But this isn't a case of a simple robbing or someone threaten someone with a knife. Zimmerman probably didn't think he would be in this stand your ground situation. BUT OVERALL IT IS HIS FAULT THAT HE GOT THERE. There is no where to run as Trayvon was on top of him. And maybe Zimmerman could have done something different, but his impulse was to shoot Trayvon.

All of that was very logical. You don't have to question his sanity. Just as you don't have to question that one time in recent news he help people out of a car wreck.

It was pure and simple, Zimmerman made a mistake. Trayvon is understandable in his reaction of beating someone that follow him. If Trayvon had killed Zimmerman, he would have go in jail for killing a Neighborhood Watchman. The fact that he is black, this probably don't make national news because Trayvon simply will go to jail. EDIT: because most blacks don't get away with this kind of stuff.

Zimmerman should go to jail because he put himself in a situation where he had to kill a man. I am not a lawyer, I don't know too much about self defense that was use in this case instead of stand your ground. But to me it is his fault that Trayvon is dead. If I was Zimmerman, and I was beneath Trayvon as he punching me. I would scream for help. And if that didn't work, I would shot and kill Trayvon.

---------- Post added August 31, 2013 at 12:06 AM ---------- Previous post was August 30, 2013 at 11:55 PM ----------

I am from and live on the East Coast. I am not a part of any crazy gun culture. I don't own a gun, my family has never had a gun in the house since I was born. My father would hunt when he was a kid and young adult, but it wasn't a hobby of his since I've been alive. There was a school shooting at my alma mater on the first day of school last year, I am not a gun advocate.

Since you live in the USA, you should know about the gun culture because it will affect you. Having gun is alike to patriotism. People are now crazy enough to carry gun in dorm, in the park. That doesn't meant they are going to use them. Though any physical alteration is most likely arise from personal accident rather than having to defend oneself against anybody. To logically conclude, that Zimmerman planning to use those gun because he carry them is wrong. But you didn't phrase it that way, you said the need to use the gun. Most people own guns just because they can. But most people own guns and carry guns because they feel safe. Just like buying insurance. So Zimmerman having a gun is a non issue consider he is living in Florida. You just can't use the non gun zone logic with these people. It is like you asking, this mom carry gun to the park, her mentality is that she may need to use it.

But sure in this case, I will give you that giving that since Zimmerman is a Neighborhood watchman. But then you ask why would he put himself in that situation. Well he is a Neighborhood watchman. But people don't predict the future. I meant you go driving, which meant there is a chance of a car accident. Then I ask you why do you put yourself in that situation. So is the answer is not to drive at all?

This case to be can be consider a freak accident (though not exactly). It just spiral out of hand way way way too quickly.

As for the mentality of Zimmerman. Not quite sure, he is just about as prejudice as any normal people down South. He is just about as sane at any gun owners down South. And he is just about frustrated as just about any average non black guy who feel blacks get away with thing. But though a recent interview with his wife showed that there is some sort of conflict between the two before the shooting of Trayvon Martin.

 

[xi0]

Urghh, so what is his motivation?? So tonight is a good night to hunt down and shoot a black guy??

I have no idea, I can't read his mind. Like someone said earlier in the thread (probably earthforge because it was genius), maybe he thinks he's Batman?!

But there's a lot of additional information, as well as the 911 call he himself made, that leads me to think that it could be racial profiling. That doesn't necessarily mean that burglaries in that neighborhood weren't done by black male youths, but it does mean he was more inclined to do what he did that night because Martin was black (I don't mean shooting him, just to be CLEAR).

And sure, reaching for the only means to protect yourself is indeed rational and instinctual thing to do, but that doesn't mean the mistake you made by putting yourself in that position is. And it doesn't mean you aren't legally responsible for that persons death either, at least in my eyes.

But I do think the story would have been national news either way, considering the already-existing controversy over the law, and the fact that it smelled of racially-motivated violence. It's the same with any sort of hate-crime. The majority of black-on-black crime is ignored in the media, and that's pretty much indisputable. Just look at the amount of gun-related violent crime in Chicago this year alone. No one is really talking about it.

Other than that, I'm in agreement with what you said...so, yeah

---------- Post added at 01:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:10 AM ----------

Since you live in the USA, you should know about the gun culture because it will affect you. Having gun is alike to patriotism. People are now crazy enough to carry gun in dorm, in the park. That doesn't meant they are going to use them. Though any physical alteration is most likely arise from personal accident rather than having to defend oneself against anybody. To logically conclude, that Zimmerman planning to use those gun because he carry them is wrong. But you didn't phrase it that way, you said the need to use the gun. Most people own guns just because they can. But most people own guns and carry guns because they feel safe. Just like buying insurance. So Zimmerman having a gun is a non issue consider he is living in Florida. You just can't use the non gun zone logic with these people. It is like you asking, this mom carry gun to the park, her mentality is that she may need to use it.

But sure in this case, I will give you that giving that since Zimmerman is a Neighborhood watchman. But then you ask why would he put himself in that situation. Well he is a Neighborhood watchman. But people don't predict the future. I meant you go driving, which meant there is a chance of a car accident. Then I ask you why do you put yourself in that situation. So is the answer is not to drive at all?

This case to be can be consider a freak accident (though not exactly). It just spiral out of hand way way way too quickly.

As for the mentality of Zimmerman. Not quite sure, he is just about as prejudice as any normal people down South. He is just about as sane at any gun owners down South. And he is just about frustrated as just about any average white guy who feel blacks get away with thing. But though a recent interview with his wife showed that there is some sort of conflict between the two before the shooting of Trayvon Martin.

I live in Maryland, having a Right-to-Carry permit is almost impossible to get. The gun culture has thankfully not touched my life personally.

I didn't say Zimmerman planned to use a gun, like I said before, I don't know his motivation. All I know is that he was armed. A neighborhood watch isn't a security detail, it is a community organization designed to prevent crime. They are not vigilantes and can't take the law into their own hands. It's merely designed to prevent crime by keeping an eye on the neighborhood and reporting anything suspicious to the authorities, working in an organized manner. What Zimmerman did, even before that night, goes well beyond the function of such a group. It suggests vigilante behavior...aka Batman.

 

[weixiaobao]

Before I reply with what you wrote, I have to be tough on all of Trayvon's supporters. Because vilified Zimmerman isn't the way to go. This case isn't an outliner, it is only because it is a freak accident.

The scary thing is that Zimmerman is fairly normal. The scary thing is that racial profiling is normal. The scary thing is that stand your ground mentality is normal. The scary thing is that these so call responsible gun owners are just one second from being a non responsible gun owners at any given moment. The scary thing is that people thought Trayvon should die. The scary thing is that people held Zimmerman as a hero.

If Zimmerman want to be batman, there are millions of Zimmerman down South. I want to drive the message that everyone can be Zimmerman. The problem certainly not one Zimmerman.

 

[xi0]

Before I reply with what you wrote, I have to be tough on all of Trayvon's supporters. Because vilified Zimmerman isn't the way to go. This case isn't an outliner, it is only because it is a freak accident.

The scary thing is that Zimmerman is fairly normal. The scary thing is that racial profiling is normal. The scary thing is that stand your ground mentality is normal. The scary thing is that these so call responsible gun owners are just one second from being a non responsible gun owners at any given moment. The scary thing is that people thought Trayvon should die. The scary thing is that people held Zimmerman as a hero.

If Zimmerman want to be batman, there are millions of Zimmerman down South. I want to drive the message that everyone can be Zimmerman. The problem certainly not one Zimmerman.

I'm sorry, but it isn't a "freak accident". The end result may not have been what was intended, but that doesn't make it an accident...

Zimmerman is singled out because he's responsible for Martin's death...that's it

---------- Post added at 01:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:22 AM ----------

And the only reason to be "tough" on a Martin supporter is if they're being irrational. One could be a Martin supporter just because he was a 17 year old who's life was cut short when there was no reason for it to be.

 

[conn-man]

I'll say the same thing I've been saying for a while. Both of them where big headed idiot tough guys looking for any reason to beat their chests.

Keys points I focus on.

Zimm wanted the thrill of busting bad kids and be respected as a cool crime busting guy. Trey wanted to be to be respected by his peers for being admirably experienced and dangerous.
Zimm broke orders to follow Trey. Trey struck first before many meaningful words where exchanged. Given either of them was capable of articulating meaningful words.
Zimm relyed on a gun to save himself in the heat of several blows to the face from Trey.

Also it would have been appropriote for Zimm to do 6-12 years give or take. 30 was to much and none is way to little imo.

 

[weixiaobao]

===========================================================================
1) You seemed ignorant about Chicago (I used ignorant as a non offensive word, it meant you don't know about something).

Gun control proved not to work regionally in Chicago. You can't expect one state to have gun ban nor is gun ban align with the USA culture. Smart Gun regulation is the way to go (and depend on the crime rate of the place) and it must be nationwide to be effective because someone could easily smuggle something across state border. People don't talk about Chicago, because they expect Chicago like that. People think black people are animals and uneducated and that is why they shoot the hell out of each other. But many political issues are interrelated like drug war, gun, and poverty. No simple explanation. But since Chicago problem isn't the problem of white Americans (though I think it is more about class than race, the middle class as the media put it and the 47% that want handouts as Romney put it), there will be no television time for that.


2) Freak Accident- I use this simple analogy. You go eat sushi knowing full well that you can have that somewhat rare diseases that associate with raw fish. And then you got it, sure it isn't an accident because you ate the raw fish. Zimmerman has no control over how Trayvon will react. I don't know, maybe he caught up to Trayvon. Maye a simple of exchange, "You punk, why are you here. I gonna detain you until the police come." Or something. There are hundred of possibility that didn't end up with Trayvon being dead. But it did.

3) Zimmerman's mentality- Witness accounts and Forensics evidences seemed to favor Zimmerman at this point (about the physical alteration). There are recent past incidents in that places involved blacks. Even with what he said on the 911 calls, it seemed logical (Zimmerman isn't a saint he got his feelings) about what he would do if he saw a suspicious black guy show up. Zimmerman act perfectly rational in term of what a human would act. And if the news/youtube video had told me about human especially Americans, we are not exactly very rational. So if you said he is batman, he is no more batman wannabe than the rest of us (even the non Southern people). Beside his past, his recent time as a neighborhood watchmen didn't really involved physical alteration (exception of Trayvon Martin in which I don't think he started the fist fight). He did solve a few crimes. I don't think he meant to be an vigilante in term of physically fighting someone like batman. At best, he probably gonna give Trayvon a shitty time by getting the parent involved or let the kid spent a night in jail or something. But he ain't sorry about shooting a kid. And right now, I think he thought he did the right thing.

3) Racial motivation- sure this case is racially motivated, anybody argue otherwise is an idiot. But this is quite normal, even black people afraid of black people. Blaming Zimmerman for such a normal fear is yeah making a scapegoat out of a very complex problem. Why is this image of blacks are criminal and violent there in the first place? Something is wrong with the culture and social inequality that no authority figure actually trying to do anything about it (especially Obama). Chicago laid off more than a 1000 teachers. Even before that, the education system sucks anyway. I think we will have to accept to the fact that statically blacks commit far more crimes than most in this country. You could say the Drug War target blacks, or because of poverty or whatever. But such is fact. As long as such statistic is there, you will have trouble convince any rational people not to racially profile anyone. Nor is it an abnormal thing to do. But up course, stop and frisk is unconstitutional. So you were not okay with what Zimmerman did. Even though you don't meant it, but it still sound like some of your comments like it is okay for an authority figure like cops to do it. No, that is even less okay.


I thought Prof. Jody Armour has very intelligent things to say about how middle class blacks trying to distance themselves from lower class blacks and what wrong with that, also in term of drugs/crimes.

 

[M3J]

Gun control won't work in America because too many people have guns, and bad people can buy guns illegally. Zimmerman was still in the wrong for going after Martin when he was told to stay where he was. It's profiling that made him go after Martin, not because Martin was doing something bad.

Also:

 

[xi0]

I'll say the same thing I've been saying for a while. Both of them where big headed idiot tough guys looking for any reason to beat their chests.

Keys points I focus on.

Zimm wanted the thrill of busting bad kids and be respected as a cool crime busting guy. Trey wanted to be to be respected by his peers for being admirably experienced and dangerous.
Zimm broke orders to follow Trey. Trey struck first before many meaningful words where exchanged. Given either of them was capable of articulating meaningful words.
Zimm relyed on a gun to save himself in the heat of several blows to the face from Trey.

Also it would have been appropriote for Zimm to do 6-12 years give or take. 30 was to much and none is way to little imo.

This is your theory, or...?

---------- Post added at 04:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:42 AM ----------

1) You seemed ignorant about Chicago (I used ignorant as a non offensive word, it meant you don't know about something).

Gun control proved not to work regionally in Chicago. You can't expect one state to have gun ban nor is gun ban align with the USA culture. Smart Gun regulation is the way to go (and depend on the crime rate of the place) and it must be nationwide to be effective because someone could easily smuggle something across state border. People don't talk about Chicago, because they expect Chicago like that. People think black people are animals and uneducated and that is why they shoot the hell out of each other. But many political issues are interrelated like drug war, gun, and poverty. No simple explanation. But since Chicago problem isn't the problem of white Americans (though I think it is more about class than race, the middle class as the media put it and the 47% that want handouts as Romney put it), there will be no television time for that.

Uh, why do I seem ignorant? I don't live in Chicago, but I mentioned it because it's something that isn't covered anywhere near as much as this case and others are, because it is, in large part, black-on-black crime. That was my only point, and I wasn't implying I knew anything else about it...plus it's offtopic.

2) Freak Accident- I use this simple analogy. You go eat sushi knowing full well that you can have that somewhat rare diseases that associate with raw fish. And then you got it, sure it isn't an accident because you ate the raw fish. Zimmerman has no control over how Trayvon will react. I don't know, maybe he caught up to Trayvon. Maye a simple of exchange, "You punk, why are you here. I gonna detain you until the police come." Or something. There are hundred of possibility that didn't end up with Trayvon being dead. But it did.

That's a rather lose analogy. You go out for sushi because you enjoy it and it's sustenance. Zimmerman goes to follow Trayvon Martin that night because of the same reasons? No. It was completely unnecessary for him and may have even been unlawful if we had more information.

3) Zimmerman's mentality- Witness accounts and Forensics evidences seemed to favor Zimmerman at this point (about the physical alteration). There are recent past incidents in that places involved blacks. Even with what he said on the 911 calls, it seemed logical (Zimmerman isn't a saint he got his feelings) about what he would do if he saw a suspicious black guy show up. Zimmerman act perfectly rational in term of what a human would act. And if the news/youtube video had told me about human especially Americans, we are not exactly very rational. So if you said he is batman, he is no more batman wannabe than the rest of us (even the non Southern people). Beside his past, his recent time as a neighborhood watchmen didn't really involved physical alteration (exception of Trayvon Martin in which I don't think he started the fist fight). He did solve a few crimes. I don't think he meant to be an vigilante in term of physically fighting someone like batman. At best, he probably gonna give Trayvon a shitty time by getting the parent involved or let the kid spent a night in jail or something. But he ain't sorry about shooting a kid. And right now, I think he thought he did the right thing.

How do past incidents factor into this? They may be an explanation for how Zimmerman acted that night, but it isn't an excuse...

Zimmerman acted perfectly rational that night? Okay. Well I completely disagree there, but I'm not going to repeat myself.

The use of "Batman" is to display his vigilante tendencies. It isn't to be taken literally. He isn't going out on patrols with a mask and cowl, looking for fistfights. It simply means that he was inclined to stick his nose into matters where he wasn't responsible, professionally capable, nor legally allowed to handle. Case and point, that fateful night.

Neighborhood Watch doesn't "solve crime", they help the police to PREVENT it. They're regular citizens just like you and me. Stop talking about it like he served in the force or something.

What makes you think he isn't sorry about taking a boy's life? What is that based on? I know veterans who have taken lives of enemy combatants and are haunted by it. This is death based on a misunderstanding, and if Zimmerman has any sense of decency in his head, I'd bet you he has regrets. At least he regrets his bank account being used for his legal defense if just stayed where he was and listened to the 911 operator.

3) Racial motivation- sure this case is racially motivated, anybody argue otherwise is an idiot. But this is quite normal, even black people afraid of black people. Blaming Zimmerman for such a normal fear is yeah making a scapegoat out of a very complex problem. Why is this image of blacks are criminal and violent there in the first place? Something is wrong with the culture and social inequality that no authority figure actually trying to do anything about it (especially Obama). Chicago laid off more than a 1000 teachers. Even before that, the education system sucks anyway. I think we will have to accept to the fact that statically blacks commit far more crimes than most in this country. You could say the Drug War target blacks, or because of poverty or whatever. But such is fact. As long as such statistic is there, you will have trouble convince any rational people not to racially profile anyone. Nor is it an abnormal thing to do. But up course, stop and frisk is unconstitutional.

Sorry, Zimmerman is not a scapegoat. He hasn't been blamed for the mistakes, wrongdoings, or faults of others out of convenience. At least, certainly not by the justice system. In fact it's the opposite in some circles, but those people are obviously demented.

You speak about a larger problem, and sure it's related to people's reactions to this case. But that's incredibly broad and complex.

So you were not okay with what Zimmerman did. Even though you don't meant it, but it still sound like some of your comments like it is okay for an authority figure like cops to do it. No, that is even less okay.

First, is this post directed at me? If so, then no, I'm not okay with what happened, I think that's kind of obvious.

No, if Zimmerman was a cop, Martin would have likely been told he was a police officer or even figured it out on his own. It depends on whether he was in uniform or not. If you have a badge flashed or see a holstered gun and are doing nothing wrong, you usually act appropriately to being questioned. But then again, I'm not a part of the demographic that's at risk of being racially profiled, so I have no idea what that it's like to live your life like that. If it's some stranger harassing you, that's a completely different situation altogether, and that's what happened in this case.

BTW, I'm not sure where you got this notion I was okay with cops acting unlawfully from my comments, but okay...that's offtopic anyway as well.

 

[conn-man]

To xi0

You can call that a theory but I call it perspective. All the articles and news reports I have reaf have lead me to feel like neither of these two guys are grevious sinners or spotless saints.

 

[M3J]

It's still a theory/opinion. Wasn't Trayvon by himself? The transcript indicate so... so how would Trayvon be able to impress his peers if they have not seen him fight? Sure, he could regale the exciting story, but would anyone believe him?

Either way, Zimmerman was still in more wrong than Martin. Zimmerman was the one who stalked Martin, despite being told not to. He's the one who profiled Martin and acted upon his prejudice. I don't know who confronted who first, but Zimmerman was the one who pulled out a gun and shot Martin... maybe he could have shot Martin in the least fatal way or shot a warning shot first. Either way, Zimmerman got off way too easily even though Stand Your Ground wouldn't have been necessary if Zimmerman stayed put like he was told to.

Martin may have overreacted and attacked Zimmerman, possibly to kill or really injure, but you can't entirely blame him if he was stalked by a suspicious white man. Martin lost his life unnecessarily due to stupidity....

 

[xi0]

To xi0

You can call that a theory but I call it perspective. All the articles and news reports I have reaf have lead me to feel like neither of these two guys are grevious sinners or spotless saints.

Fair enough, but if you take each's character and only look at the general facts of what happened, Martin was shot in "self-defense" when that situation was created entirely due to Zimmerman's willingness to go above and beyond what is asked of a civilian. This is why people actually want a police department, trained officers, and not martial law. Because stupid people get in the way.

 

[kkck]

There is no such thing as a non fatal way to shoot someone.... Zimmerman acted on the spot, was seemingly close to martin and at most met the requirements to get a gun permit when it came to firing the gun. Being in such a situation and still be able to calmly calculate where to shoot to deal the least amount of damage would would imply zimmerman is something like a super gunman (and rambo + james bond would be his bitch). On top of that bullets are designed specifically to make targets bleed as much and as severely as possible which is inconvenient to a body which is full of delicate arteries more than ready to give up the precious blood they carry. Survival statistics when it comes to being shot are not as terrible as what I wrote would imply however you do need at least immediate medical attention to make it. And of course martin being shot in the chest did not really help.

---------- Post added at 06:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:34 PM ----------

Fair enough, but if you take each's character and only look at the general facts of what happened, Martin was shot in "self-defense" when that situation was created entirely due to Zimmerman's willingness to go above and beyond what is asked of a civilian. This is why people actually want a police department, trained officers, and not martial law. Because stupid people get in the way.

To me the issue here is... well, zimmerman acted stupid first but what exactly was he supposed to do once martin attacked? Zimmerman's main fault here is definitely going first when it comes to being stupid but does that justify martin approaching him and attacking him (for convenience sake lets say the accepted version of the case is mostly true). Was zimmerman supposed to just allow himself to get beaten up? There is nothing really unreasonable about zimmerman being scared shitless in that situation and fistfights can easily kill people too. There is no reason for us to think zimmerman is a racist who was out for blood that night, zimmerman is just a simple person who made a stupid call which resulted in further stupidity. The media has at large been wrong to demonize martin as if he was a gang member or something but the same is being done to zimmerman to a great degree. Zimmerman is not a racist nazi murderer who was out hunting, he is just a dude who made a bad call that night. There is little reason to think martin was anything but a kid with a bad attitude, he was as far as we know not a thug or a thief. In this particular case it just so happened that zimmerman was luckier one. Of course it is entirely possible that if zimmerman had not drawn the gun at all it would have simply ended with zimmerman being beat up but then that brings us back to the whole thing about whether zimmerman should have just accepted the beating.....

 

[M3J]

There is no such thing as a non fatal way to shoot someone....

There is. A shot in the leg below the thigh or arm can damage without killing. There have been incidents (or at least one) where someone shot themselves on purpose to look like a victim in order to get away with a crime. I seem to remember a woman doing this to get away with attacking or killing someone.

Martin may have approached him and attacked him because he felt threatened by Zimmerman. Maybe Zimmerman said something to provoke Martin into attacking.

There does seem to be a reason to believe Zimmerman's reason for going after Martin was due to prejudice, however, and profiling. While he did shoot Martin out of self defense, it is very possible Zimmerman could have done it in a way that didn't kill Martin. One shot to the arm or leg and then call the ambulance and wait for it to arrive.

 

[kkck]

The only way to do that would be to just miss an arterie or something. Doing that intentionally in the middle of a heated up situation is, as I mentioned before, super gunsman territory. He would be a real life vash the stampede or something. Other than that if he shots the leg and hits an arteries and martin still dies within minutes. Same thing for the shoulder, arms and pretty much body part that has an important arteries near it (which is invariably all the body parts).

The point I was trying to make was mostly besides whether zimmerman did or didn't provoke martin. Its about how zimmerman should have acted once shit got real. Was he not supposed to defend himself? Was he supposed to just think "Ok, I had this one coming, I should let him beat me up"? Was he not allowed to be legitimately scared? Zimmerman at that point experienced what anyone at that point would when having a strange guy 4 inches taller than him beating him up.

Even if the situation can lead to somewhat reasonably suspect prejudice and those thing... well, the situation does not allow you to actually prove it. Thats extremely important.

 

[xi0]

The whole point is Zimmerman shouldn't have been following Martin in the first place. Of course you can't expect Zimmerman, someone who's had minimal ballistics training, to know where to shoot. That point is kind of silly Milly.

We don't really know at what point Zimmerman drew on him, or if Martin even knew he was doing so. Zimmerman had poor judgment, was stupid enough to pick a fight with the wrong person, and then had to defend himself. The entire situation was asinine.

 

[Kaiten]

Zimmerman had called the police before the shooting, and an officer had already been dispatched. He ended the call to the police at 7:15PM, the first officer was on the scene at 7:17PM. Zimmerman told the dispatcher that he had lost sight of Martin, and was pursuing. The dispatcher specifically told him not to do that. Zimmerman had called the police from his car. Had he waited for the officer, locked safely in his car, he would not have been assaulted by Martin, and would not have opened fire. Whatever his reasoning, Zimmerman is guilty of egregiously bad decision making, putting himself directly in harms way. The entire episode could have been avoided if Zimmerman had just stayed in the damn car. He was only assaulted by Martin after he disregarded the police dispatcher's advice, recklessly following an unknown individual (on foot) through the neighborhood.

---------- Post added at 11:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:17 AM ----------

Was he not allowed to be legitimately scared? Zimmerman at that point experienced what anyone at that point would when having a strange guy 4 inches taller than him beating him up.

By law, no, fear should have had nothing to do with the situation. He had already called the police, an officer was on the way, and he had specifically been told not to pursue Martin. Zimmerman's only responsibility at that point was to get himself to safety, and wait for an officer to arrive. Zimmerman had called from his car, and could have simply locked the doors and waited. Zimmerman had no business pursuing Martin on his own, by doing so he put himself in harms way. No matter who was at fault, or the legal outcome, the entire situation was avoidable. Zimmerman need not ever have been assaulted. Had he stayed in the car, like the police dispatcher asked, he would not have been beat up, and never would have pulled his gun.

 

[kkck]

I completely agree, the situation was entirely avoidable (it took extremely poor judgement from both of them for the situation to get to that point). I meant to talk about specifically the moment the confrontation started though, about what zimmerman was supposed to do once the situation got to that point.

 

[Kaiten]

The question of race centers on whether Zimmerman's actions would have been the same, if Martin had been white, Asian, or Indian. Despite reports to the contrary, there was nothing thug about Martin's dress that night. Millions of young adults and teens, of all races, dress that way. I frequently wear a hoody, does that make me "thug"? Racism was not merely a media contrivance. Racism was a legitimate concern raised by the black community based on the facts of the case. Would Zimmerman's actions that night have been the same if Martin had not been black?

Zimmerman's own ethnic background should not be a factor in the discussion. Minorities can (and frequently are) be racist themselves. Racial identity can be quite complicated for mixed race individuals. There is no way of knowing how Zimmerman identified himself, or his views on others. He might not even be overtly racist. He might have panicked subconsciously seeing an unknown, young black male walking through the neighborhood. We will never know for sure what he was thinking. There is no reason to dismiss race, though, as nothing more than a media creation. I often dress in a very similar manner (similar hoody, similar pants, similar shoes) to how Martin was dressed that night, except that I am white, brown hair, and dark blue eyes. If Zimmerman had seen me walking through the neighborhood at 7PM, there is almost no chance he even calls the police.

---------- Post added at 12:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:54 AM ----------

I completely agree, the situation was entirely avoidable (it took extremely poor judgement from both of them for the situation to get to that point). I meant to talk about specifically the moment the confrontation started though, about what zimmerman was supposed to do once the situation got to that point.

Again, no, fear should not be a factor. Zimmerman should not have put himself in that situation. Having irresponsibly put himself in a dangerous situation, his actions can not be excused by any such mitigating factors. If he was scared, he should not have put himself in such a dangerous situation in the first place.

 

[M3J]

Hoodies can be seen as "thug" if the hood is worn. I'm not saying it is, but I'm saying that's how some people would think. Depending on how Martin looked and walked, it's quite likely that mixed with prejudice towards teh blacks, Zimmerman jumped to conclusion and decided to become Batman. Main reason why Zimmerman's ethnicity is brought up is because people continuously say he was white, making it about white vs. black when Zimmerman was Hispanic, if I recall.

Could Zimmerman have fought back? He could have hit Martin with the gun if possible to get him off. Is there any indication Martin tried to kill Zimmerman or was he trying to incapacitate Zimmerman?

 

[k-dom]

"Funny", in France we just had a reverse case (a 67 years old libanian killing a white delinquent who tried to rob his jewelry) and it is making a lot of noise too.
I fear Marine will be very happy with the results of Front National in next year local elections...