So you're saying she isn't a villain or that she has no reason to be one. Then what is she? An ally or a completely neutral person, even though she is clearly against the relationship of the two protagonists and went as far as to punish them for over 3000 years with a pretty fucked up method along with the DK? She was the one who cursed Mel (going with the retcon Nakaba did to make the DK relevant again) and made him immortal just so he could see her own daughter die over and over again. If that's not the definition of a villain, I don't know what a villain is.
Just because her clan helped to take down the Demon Clan, that doesn't make her a true ally. The Goddess Clan simply took advantage of the situation of the Sins so they could wipe out their fated enemies with more ease.
The Supreme Deity had all the reasons and portrayal in the world to be a villain. Nakaba not caring enough to introduce her in the main story and leaving her for a sequel (if we're lucky) with characters she barely has any business against (overall) is another thing though.
I think the important takeaway here is that her goal is still basically to rule everything even if the Archangels helped the good guys. She just doesn't want to exterminate the Stigma races like the Demons wanted to, but if they simply beat the DK, there is little reason she wouldn't eventually try to go and exterminate everyone in the Demon realm. It's especially true since they destroyed the Commandments and made it so in the future, the Four Archangels and SD will be around but the Commandments and DK won't, making it basically a sure thing that SD will eventually kill all the Demons and also take over the other worlds with the brainwashing powers of the Goddesses and etc. The only reason for her to not do that right away is if she's scared of losing to Meliodas and the Sins, which will only be a problem as long as they're alive. They could also split up the realms to indirectly defeat her/stop that threat, but to me that would be anticlimactic.
If anything, it could have made a lot of sense for her to show up immediately during either the DK-Mel or DK-Zeldris battle's finales, in an effort to exploit the exhaustion of the sins and try to get a complete win by killing Meliodas and all of them. It could also totally happen that she doesn't betray them and just waits for them all to die before eventually conquering the Demon Realm, but the point is that she is ultimately an antagonist who wants world domination.
This is a shonen, and while it could technically happen that they don't end up fighting her due to neither side feeling like it's worth it, they're still enemies, and it would be a much better resolution for me to a shonen like this if she had appeared and her plot threads and involvements with Meliodas and Elizabeth had been wrapped up. The fact that she got zero lines in the whole series just made zero sense. Even if they really were going to not fight her in the end and even if Nakaba went as far as just having her give up on killing the Demon race and refuse to betray the alliance her suboordinates made with the Sins, she should have at least made an appearance, and some kind of flashback about the past with her would have helped. Right now it just feels really lacking that there was no fight against the SD.
It could also have been said that SD and DK didn't make many direct appearances in the war due to the nature of their powers or something threatening the stability of the world when they are not in their home dimension, and that for this reason, Nakaba could've had the Archangels just outright say they are no longer loyal to SD and her goal of genocide and are betraying her. Then if a lot of the Goddess Clan had joined them and possibly fled the celestial realm as a result to Earth, that could explain why the SD doesn't just inevitably win, if the Graces kept getting passed down to users who oppose SD rather than automatically returning to her or something. Yeah, Ludociel generically said at the end that he hopes for peace between the races, but he did not even say he was now against the SD, which was really contradictory and showed how she's a non existent character. It just doesn't feel like there was any kind of plan of what was going to happen in the future and how they were going to be sure the SD didn't just start another Holy War. It could also have just happened that a large amount of the important fighters in the Goddess Clan who worked for the Archangels just became persuaded of their view of things, and as a result, SD basically didn't have any options anymore for starting a war if none of the important soldiers believed in her ideology anymore. But right now, it seems like she is practically omnipotent and could just reassign the graces or go out and do all the genocide herself as a 1 woman army, and it's too vague how it all works.
I just think the ending and how it treated SD was very unsatisfying and didn't resolve anything with her or Meliodas and Elizabeth.
I think you guys are still misunderstanding. Yes the SD put the curse on Mel, so what. She gave up her body to imprison the Demon Clan like the other members of the Goddess Clan. So she could no longer manifest in the world.
She and the Arcangels were still not villains of the series. They helped against the Demon Clan, and then once again gave up their bodies for victory. They were never shown to want world domination. You guys just thought they were.
Is this the best way things could have been handled I don't think so, but it's the way things did happen. The Goddess Clan were not antagonists, and after placing her curse the SD was neutral at most.
Honestly I was still enjoying it for the most part until the Indura summoning. At least still didn't give up on it since a fitting climax from that point still seemed possible despite all the previous issues
Oh how wrong I was
What happened with Demon King may never happen to a villain ever again
Still love it overall, 7/10. Interested in the sequel.
I think you guys are still misunderstanding. Yes the SD put the curse on Mel, so what. She gave up her body to imprison the Demon Clan like the other members of the Goddess Clan. So she could no longer manifest in the world.
She and the Arcangels were still not villains of the series. They helped against the Demon Clan, and then once again gave up their bodies for victory. They were never shown to want world domination. You guys just thought they were.
Is this the best way things could have been handled I don't think so, but it's the way things did happen. The Goddess Clan were not antagonists, and after placing her curse the SD was neutral at most.
I see the point you're trying to make, but I respectfully disagree. The SD can't be neutral, much less an ally. You're talking like if the curse, the main plot of the series, didn't even matter when it clearly does matter. It shows that she doesn't like at all and is against the relationship between the two protagonists. How can someone be neutral with the protagonists when she's clearly against their relationship and is the core of their suffering along with the DK? Just because her clan took opportunity of the situation and allied with the Sins in order to defeat the demons doesn't mean that she isn't an antagonist or a villain. And again, she may not want world domination (actually we don't really know what she truly wants since she hasn't appeared yet), but that doesn't mean that she isn't a villain. A villain can have different objectives and motivations besides world domination. You're assuming that just because her clan allied with the Sins in order to take down a common enemy, she has no reason to be a villain and that is, in my humble opinion, quite a stretch to make since the Goddesses aren't portrayed to be much better than the Demons in the first place. Their objectives may have been similar in the way they were against the demon clan, but that doesn't mean she's neutral with the Sins, much less on their side.
Again, the SD made Meliodas immortal just so he could see her own daughter dying over and over again. That also means she was ok with her daughter being cursed by the DK to reincarnate perpetually and dying over and over again. If that doesn't make her an antagonist and a villain, I don't know what else can someone do to be given such a title. Nakaba not caring about her and not giving her screentime is another thing, but that doesn't mean either that she isn't a villain.
I think the important takeaway here is that her goal is still basically to rule everything even if the Archangels helped the good guys. She just doesn't want to exterminate the Stigma races like the Demons wanted to, but if they simply beat the DK, there is little reason she wouldn't eventually try to go and exterminate everyone in the Demon realm. It's especially true since they destroyed the Commandments and made it so in the future, the Four Archangels and SD will be around but the Commandments and DK won't, making it basically a sure thing that SD will eventually kill all the Demons and also take over the other worlds with the brainwashing powers of the Goddesses and etc. The only reason for her to not do that right away is if she's scared of losing to Meliodas and the Sins, which will only be a problem as long as they're alive. They could also split up the realms to indirectly defeat her/stop that threat, but to me that would be anticlimactic.
If anything, it could have made a lot of sense for her to show up immediately during either the DK-Mel or DK-Zeldris battle's finales, in an effort to exploit the exhaustion of the sins and try to get a complete win by killing Meliodas and all of them. It could also totally happen that she doesn't betray them and just waits for them all to die before eventually conquering the Demon Realm, but the point is that she is ultimately an antagonist who wants world domination.
This is a shonen, and while it could technically happen that they don't end up fighting her due to neither side feeling like it's worth it, they're still enemies, and it would be a much better resolution for me to a shonen like this if she had appeared and her plot threads and involvements with Meliodas and Elizabeth had been wrapped up. The fact that she got zero lines in the whole series just made zero sense. Even if they really were going to not fight her in the end and even if Nakaba went as far as just having her give up on killing the Demon race and refuse to betray the alliance her suboordinates made with the Sins, she should have at least made an appearance, and some kind of flashback about the past with her would have helped. Right now it just feels really lacking that there was no fight against the SD.
It could also have been said that SD and DK didn't make many direct appearances in the war due to the nature of their powers or something threatening the stability of the world when they are not in their home dimension, and that for this reason, Nakaba could've had the Archangels just outright say they are no longer loyal to SD and her goal of genocide and are betraying her. Then if a lot of the Goddess Clan had joined them and possibly fled the celestial realm as a result to Earth, that could explain why the SD doesn't just inevitably win, if the Graces kept getting passed down to users who oppose SD rather than automatically returning to her or something. Yeah, Ludociel generically said at the end that he hopes for peace between the races, but he did not even say he was now against the SD, which was really contradictory and showed how she's a non existent character. It just doesn't feel like there was any kind of plan of what was going to happen in the future and how they were going to be sure the SD didn't just start another Holy War. It could also have just happened that a large amount of the important fighters in the Goddess Clan who worked for the Archangels just became persuaded of their view of things, and as a result, SD basically didn't have any options anymore for starting a war if none of the important soldiers believed in her ideology anymore. But right now, it seems like she is practically omnipotent and could just reassign the graces or go out and do all the genocide herself as a 1 woman army, and it's too vague how it all works.
I just think the ending and how it treated SD was very unsatisfying and didn't resolve anything with her or Meliodas and Elizabeth.
It's more or less what you say. I wouldn't be so sure if she wants world domination or not, even though it would seem so, we still don't know as we barely know anything about her besides that she's Eli's mother, the one who cursed Mel and the ruler of the GC. The worst thing out of all this isn't the fact that she didn't appear (though that in itself already makes no sense), but the fact that all the characters, especially Mel and Eli, act like she hadn't even existed in the first place. Like if the DK was the only one who cursed them in the first place when that clearly isn't the case. It's just incredible to see the sight of the protagonists (again, especially Mel and Eli) partying and not saying anything of her when she's still clearly active and is the other main core of their suffering. You would at least expect a sentence or so regarding her, but no, nothing. Absolutely nothing, and this is really bad because it leaves a good portion of the series overall (the Goddess Clan, the Supreme Deity, Eli and her relationship with her mother, her backstory, etc) completely unexplored like it barely even existed in the first place.
I mean, Nakaba could introduce all of this in the sequel, but I don't think that would be the right place to do so. Again, the protagonists on that sequel will be Arthur and the children of the Sins. You would expect the plot of the Sins to be finished already to finish the series and start a sequel that focuses on different characters, but it turns out it's far from over and the SD will probably be used against characters she barely has any business against (with the exception of Tristan maybe). I don't find it appropriate, but let's see what Nakaba does.
Nakaba really fascinates me on how he'll blatantly retcon a plot point/fact of the series just to keep up the plot.
Just look at the curses, which were first mentioned from like chapter 180 (ish):
Merlin: ''Meliodas is cursed by the Demon King'' . Meliodas to his daddy: ''but im still alive thanks to the curse you gave me'' / Elizabeth: ''my mother cursed me and meliodas father cursed him'' / Ludoshel: ''Elizabeth it seems the curse your mother gave you is still working'' /
We even saw the manifestation of the curses, where Elizabeth's was a perpetual cycle of angelic figures consuming each other. Meliodas was a demonic heart with wings, both reflecting that they were cursed by their respective parents. Hell, what the curses actually did themselves represented their clans even better. Reincarnation was seen by Mael who used it on Oslo & Derieri (obviously SD uses it at a better degree). DK lived in purgatory for like a billion years so its no surprise he could give it to his son.
But then Nakaba changes it all in one chapter and has Meliodas go ''Well actually, the Supreme Deity cursed me and the Demon King cursed Elizabeth'' just so they had an actual reason to go after the fodder king. If Nakaba really wanted for this to happen then he could've gone for the ''The Gods combined powers to create the curses and as such, can break both or consider both as their own curse'' and I would've entirely believed it and accepted it.
Why would the Supreme Deity curse someone who helped her daughter and killed countless demons whilst joining Stigma? He practically handed her the win if she wasn't so incompetent and suicidal. Elizabeth had saved countless demons and worked against Stigma, so why would the Demon King curse her for that? It's contradictory.
Nakaba should've just kept it to the ''SD wanted to punish Elizabeth for being a hoe, and the DK wanted to punish Meliodas for being a fuck boi so they combined powers and created the curses''.
but nah let's wipe 120 chapters of progression just for the plot. absolutely fantastic.
Nakaba really fascinates me on how he'll blatantly retcon a plot point/fact of the series just to keep up the plot.
Just look at the curses, which were first mentioned from like chapter 180 (ish):
Merlin: ''Meliodas is cursed by the Demon King'' . Meliodas to his daddy: ''but im still alive thanks to the curse you gave me'' / Elizabeth: ''my mother cursed me and meliodas father cursed him'' / Ludoshel: ''Elizabeth it seems the curse your mother gave you is still working'' /
We even saw the manifestation of the curses, where Elizabeth's was a perpetual cycle of angelic figures consuming each other. Meliodas was a demonic heart with wings, both reflecting that they were cursed by their respective parents. Hell, what the curses actually did themselves represented their clans even better. Reincarnation was seen by Mael who used it on Oslo & Derieri (obviously SD uses it at a better degree). DK lived in purgatory for like a billion years so its no surprise he could give it to his son.
But then Nakaba changes it all in one chapter and has Meliodas go ''Well actually, the Supreme Deity cursed me and the Demon King cursed Elizabeth'' just so they had an actual reason to go after the fodder king. If Nakaba really wanted for this to happen then he could've gone for the ''The Gods combined powers to create the curses and as such, can break both or consider both as their own curse'' and I would've entirely believed it and accepted it.
Why would the Supreme Deity curse someone who helped her daughter and killed countless demons whilst joining Stigma? He practically handed her the win if she wasn't so incompetent and suicidal. Elizabeth had saved countless demons and worked against Stigma, so why would the Demon King curse her for that? It's contradictory.
Nakaba should've just kept it to the ''SD wanted to punish Elizabeth for being a hoe, and the DK wanted to punish Meliodas for being a fuck boi so they combined powers and created the curses''.
but nah let's wipe 120 chapters of progression just for the plot. absolutely fantastic.
I remember discussing this with you a long time ago. I said this could potentially make some sense if Nakaba explained it properly, but that explanation never came and it resulted in a stupid nonsensical retcon as you said. Such a shame.
It's more or less what you say. I wouldn't be so sure if she wants world domination or not, even though it would seem so, we still don't know as we barely know anything about her besides that she's Eli's mother, the one who cursed Mel and the ruler of the GC.
The only reason I say this is that Ludociel wanted to genocide all the Demons and I think SD inevitably must have agreed with that plan since she was the leader and allowed his plans to take place, so he must have reported to her and asked for the go-ahead, even if it was originally his idea to begin genocide. Technically that doesn't mean world domination, however, we already saw that the Goddess Clan brainwashed the Humans into being their minions in the New Holy War. So unless they had a more respectful view of the Giants and Fairies, it seems like that is effectively what they wanted. And even if it isn't, the fact is that if they genocided all the Demons, they would've become the indisputable world power forever that none of the other races could contest. Those are basically all my reasons for thinking so although yeah, the fact that it is never stated outright is just really bad writing.
The worst thing out of all this isn't the fact that she didn't appear (though that in itself already makes no sense), but the fact that all the characters, especially Mel and Eli, act like she hadn't even existed in the first place. Like if the DK was the only one who cursed them in the first place when that clearly isn't the case. It's just incredible to see the sight of the protagonists (again, especially Mel and Eli) partying and not saying anything of her when she's still clearly active and is the other main core of their suffering. You would at least expect a sentence or so regarding her, but no, nothing. Absolutely nothing, and this is really bad because it leaves a good portion of the series overall (the Goddess Clan, the Supreme Deity, Eli and her relationship with her mother, her backstory, etc) completely unexplored like it barely even existed in the first place.
I mean, Nakaba could introduce all of this in the sequel, but I don't think that would be the right place to do so. Again, the protagonists on that sequel will be Arthur and the children of the Sins. You would expect the plot of the Sins to be finished already to finish the series and start a sequel that focuses on different characters, but it turns out it's far from over and the SD will probably be used against characters she barely has any business against (with the exception of Tristan maybe). I don't find it appropriate, but let's see what Nakaba does.
Yeah. I don't expect a super detailed or intricate antagonist motivation in a Shonen, but she literally didn't exist as a character. We never even learned details like what the GC would do if they had won, like if they would still bother brainwashing everyone or not or if they would just rule everything openly. Other stuff like the balance of the force thingy was never explored. Would everybody die if either the light or dark side were genocided, due to the disbalance of powers? Or do they have a reason to believe that won't happen? It seems like it was on track to happening back when Meliodas defeated the DK because as long as there was 1 DK around but no SD in the same world, the human world was going to be destroyed. Does that only happen if either of the Gods are present in a world they are not native to/supposed to be in? Does nothing happen to other worlds if the whole Demon Realm goes kaput or vice versa due to its native God figure being killed? I mean i would be fine with that being the case or even both the SD and DK wanting to not only exterminate the other one's race but also to take over their realm and basically colonize it without causing all worlds to go poof, but i think the 'balance of the force' thing was never properly explained and that the vagueness there is weird.
To be fair, it is entirely possible that SD is physically dead and needs somebody else to revive her/be her vessel to be an active threat again. Yes, it would make the war unbalanced and be asymmetrical, but it could explain why they aren't scared of her and are partying carefree and etc.That's just never explained though which is a big weakness to the story. DK also said the cycle of light and darkness would end as a result of Mel's decision. What does that even mean? That it would cause the realms to separate? That it would destroy the light and dark realms somehow? Or just that it would stop the Holy Wars in general? It's so vague that it's painful to be honest. I get it if he wants to use language in a way that preserves the sense of fairy tale-ness, but it would help if it was more clear.
I just feel like the grudge between Eli and SD is totally non existent since there are no lines between them. We could have seen a flashback to when the DK and SD actually condemned and turned on Mel and Eli rather than just have it discussed in retrospect. At least with Mel we got an impression of what his relation with the DK was like before then, he respected him and followed his orders even though he thought the war was meaningless, but with Eli there is basically nothing, it's really lame.
I think you guys are still misunderstanding. Yes the SD put the curse on Mel, so what. She gave up her body to imprison the Demon Clan like the other members of the Goddess Clan. So she could no longer manifest in the world.
She and the Arcangels were still not villains of the series. They helped against the Demon Clan, and then once again gave up their bodies for victory. They were never shown to want world domination. You guys just thought they were.
Is this the best way things could have been handled I don't think so, but it's the way things did happen. The Goddess Clan were not antagonists, and after placing her curse the SD was neutral at most.
I actually sort of agree with this to be honest. The thing is I think Nakaba had the 'narrative intent' to make the SD also be a villain, but executed it very poorly. We don't even see how she was involved with Ludociel's decision, even though logically she must have approved his whole 'let's exterminate the demons' announcements. So she was at least in favor of that. World domination, well, not necessarily, but she was already in favor of brainwashing the humans to use them as tools for the holy war. And we didn't get any signs they think more highly of the Fairies and Giants, so it kind of seems like SD doesn't care about what the other races want. Just because she doesn't want to genocide them like the DK eventually decided to, that doesn't mean she isn't a villain.
I guess the main point of evidence in favor of the Goddess Clan wanting to control the others would be how they treated the humans with brainwashing. It was stated at some point that one of the major incentives for the war was the whole 'resource war over the magical powers of the land' thing, and that the more population there is in a place, the less magic there is for each person. So it seems like they might've wanted to keep the humans from overpopulating the place and may have planned to have some of their clan live there to supervise and rule over them once they won, since they wouldn't be able to resist a force so powerful, and the GC would want the power that came from the land.
Yeah, they did sacrifice their bodies, but technically speaking it seems like that was just due to how things turned out and them having no real other option but to do that to stall the war and try to eventually later win. It doesn't mean they were trying to make a noble sacrifice, if they hadn't done that sealing move, they might have lost altogether. Due to the way it was treated though I don't even know if there was a plan for the AAs to revive the SD or give her a vessel or something so she could temporarily possess then revive, it is just too vague. However, even if that was the way Nakaba wanted to go and he wanted them to be more of a good faction than the Demons, the SD still should have gotten some lines and the clan as a whole should have gotten more coverage.
guys check the 2nd to the middle panel of the page where monspiet says "the war between the clans was because of those very power"
It seems like monspiet talks about a place a lake where the magic was full and the entire war between the clans became because of this but this whole sub-plot seems to have been retconed / abandoned and so we got an entirely new plot that was the war happened not because of the magic powers but because of the whole freaking relationship between mel and eliz...
jeesh i dislike it when authors cannot be consistent and retcon stuff.
Even back then before all the crap the consistecy was a mess because it seems like nakaba was out of ideas.
guys check the 2nd to the middle panel of the page where monspiet says "the war between the clans was because of those very power"
It seems like monspiet talks about a place a lake where the magic was full and the entire war between the clans became because of this but this whole sub-plot seems to have been retconed / abandoned and so we got an entirely new plot that was the war happened not because of the magic powers but because of the whole freaking relationship between mel and eliz...
jeesh i dislike it when authors cannot be consistent and retcon stuff.
Even back then before all the crap the consistecy was a mess because it seems like nakaba was out of ideas.
No, you misunderstood and forgot things. The war did begin over the magical power of the land in general, not a specific place, but Meliodas and Elizabeth were the cause of the war escalating further in the way it did, because Meliodas betraying the Demons tipped the balance of power in the Goddess Clan's favor, which seemingly made them become more murderous in the hopes of total victory. At some point along the line, Gowther caused Mael's fake death and made it all even worse, but the point is that no, Meliodas and Elizabeth ddin't start it.
No, you misunderstood and forgot things. The war did begin over the magical power of the land in general, not a specific place, but Meliodas and Elizabeth were the cause of the war escalating further in the way it did, because Meliodas betraying the Demons tipped the balance of power in the Goddess Clan's favor, which seemingly made them become more murderous in the hopes of total victory. At some point along the line, Gowther caused Mael's fake death and made it all even worse, but the point is that no, Meliodas and Elizabeth ddin't start it.
I would not be so sure because there is literally no other moment in the entire manga saying the started war over the magic.
It is clear that nakaba just started to make the whole source of power at the begin of the war but then as the story progressed perhaps he disliked it i don't know and to be honest i do not care but it seems like he completely tossed aside that concept because after that point it was made clear that the reason was meliodas and elizabeth and not britannias source of magic.
These characters totally forgot afterwards the source of magic and everything wrapped behind the concept of romance and love.
Well it would not be the 1rst time nakaba retconned something he established.
I would not be so sure because there is literally no other moment in the entire manga saying the started war over the magic.
It is clear that nakaba just started to make the whole source of power at the begin of the war but then as the story progressed perhaps he disliked it i don't know and to be honest i do not care but it seems like he completely tossed aside that concept because after that point it was made clear that the reason was meliodas and elizabeth and not britannias source of magic.
These characters totally forgot afterwards the source of magic and everything wrapped behind the concept of romance and love.
Well it would not be the 1rst time nakaba retconned something he established.
To me it seemed more like he didn't care about fleshing out the motives too much at all. But the key point is that Mel and Liz only met after the war had started and Mel turning traitor and being in a relationship with Elizabeth were just things that intensified the war. It's not like they were at peace before then, it was clearly said Meliodas was following DK's orders and killing people in the war as Evil Mel before then. Then again, even though I don't think he retconned it, it doesn't really matter since he was never going to make a detailed explanation of the motives either way. So 'war over resources' was an idea he threw out there and basically never developed. I agree overall that the way he handled things was bad though.
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