Politics Rise of Marxism/Communism.

[M3J]

Tbh with everything going on, I've seen people advocate for Corporatism. I don't see what that would do though.

It'd do nothing, IMO, as it'd require people needing money to be able to afford stuff later on. If payments aren't suspended, and people don't have enough of income coming in then the bailouts are just a waste of money.

 

[Ramen]

It'd do nothing, IMO, as it'd require people needing money to be able to afford stuff later on. If payments aren't suspended, and people don't have enough of income coming in then the bailouts are just a waste of money.

That's the problem. People won't be able to afford anything. I don't get how they want to give people 1500 a month or whatever it is but give trillions to business' like Boeing for their stocks. They have enough money to survive on their own. People should be a priority. Not just wall street.

There is close to 40 million people living in poverty in the US and I see that number rising exponentially after this is over because the government didn't take the appropriate action or was too late.

 

[M3J]

That's the problem. People won't be able to afford anything. I don't get how they want to give people 1500 a month or whatever it is but give trillions to business' like Boeing for their stocks. They have enough money to survive on their own. People should be a priority. Not just wall street.

There is close to 40 million people living in poverty in the US and I see that number rising exponentially after this is over because the government didn't take the appropriate action or was too late.

That's exactly what I'm saying! I wouldn't mind corporations getting money as long as people can survive. And it's $1200 once, and I think that's an advance for next year's tax or something?

 

[Ramen]

That's exactly what I'm saying! I wouldn't mind corporations getting money as long as people can survive. And it's $1200 once, and I think that's an advance for next year's tax or something?

I'm just happy I live north of the border.

 

[M3J]

You mean, USA's hat

 

[kkck]

That's the problem. People won't be able to afford anything. I don't get how they want to give people 1500 a month or whatever it is but give trillions to business' like Boeing for their stocks. They have enough money to survive on their own. People should be a priority. Not just wall street.

There is close to 40 million people living in poverty in the US and I see that number rising exponentially after this is over because the government didn't take the appropriate action or was too late.

Boing employs 140k people... And given it's role is a critical business to US interest in general from a technology point of view. Not bailing it out companies like this or similar ones during events like this would be catastrophically stupid. Of course, that doesn't mean low and middle income families shouldn't get some form of a bailout.

 

[Ramen]

Boing employs 140k people... And given it's role is a critical business to US interest in general from a technology point of view. Not bailing it out companies like this or similar ones during events like this would be catastrophically stupid. Of course, that doesn't mean low and middle income families shouldn't get some form of a bailout.

You're not getting my point. Sure, making sure the economy stays afloat is important but the US government in the broad picture seems to care more for the companies rather than the citizens.

It is stupid to give trillions of dollars in handouts to companies but give people the bare minimum.

A one time payment of 1200$ should not be the solution for those who are layed off and worry about putting food on their table when companies are getting trillions daily.

 

[M3J]

Boing employs 140k people... And given it's role is a critical business to US interest in general from a technology point of view. Not bailing it out companies like this or similar ones during events like this would be catastrophically stupid. Of course, that doesn't mean low and middle income families shouldn't get some form of a bailout.

And how do you know these companies won't lay off a lot of people?

 

[kkck]

You're not getting my point. Sure, making sure the economy stays afloat is important but the US government in the broad picture seems to care more for the companies rather than the citizens.

It is stupid to give trillions of dollars in handouts to companies but give people the bare minimum.

A one time payment of 1200$ should not be the solution for those who are layed off and worry about putting food on their table when companies are getting trillions daily.

That is more or less the point I brought about earlier. But the issue here remains not that the companies are getting bailouts but rather than there isn't policy specifically aimed at low and middle income families. Or more in the US context, that they pretend bailouts to corporations are the same as giving the little guy a bailout.

Sure, a one time payment of 1200 isn't enough in the US. Though its also not true that corporations are getting trillions daily.

 

[Sanity Check]

Question.

Is amazon an example of old money and privileged status.

Or is it an illustration of how capitalism can allow average and ordinary college students like Jeff Bezos to someday become one of the richest businessmen on earth?

 

[M3J]

Amazon is an illustration of how capitalism is immoral and greedy in order to make profits. Amazon does as well as it does because it crushes competition mercilessly and forces employees (according to them) to constantly work without break and not be compensated enough for it. Amazon is also successful because of MacKenzie Bezos' contribution.

Capitalism allows companies and leaders to do shady shit in order to become wealthy and successful. Carnegie for example hired goons to beat up and even kill workers who striked for better pay, hours, and living condition.

 

[Sanity Check]

Elon Musk in his teens developed a video game he sold for $500. He built a travel website he sold for more. Took the $$ and reinvested it into business after business until he got where he is today. Many corporate magnates like Steve Jobs, Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos are average and ordinary people who started a business that became successful. They were once in debt college students who didn't make the rules as to what taxes they pay or what salaries they give workers. They merely followed rules and laws put in place by the government.

What is interesting about this narrative is the media's tendency to neglect to mention socialist regimes like china being guilty of far more insidious and depraved crimes against humanity in contrast to capitalism and the private sector. China runs foxconn worker concentration camps far worse than anything amazon has done. Slave labor runs rampant throughout asia and europe. There is a double standard where certain things are only considered immoral if capitalism or certain demographics can be blamed for them. To push certain political narratives and agendas.

 

[Ramen]

Question.

Is amazon an example of old money and privileged status.

Or is it an illustration of how capitalism can allow average and ordinary college students like Jeff Bezos to someday become one of the richest businessmen on earth?

Why not both?

 

[Sanity Check]

Why not both?

People are looking @ Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk as if they're the architects of our civilization & society.

None of them have been rich long enough for that.

Old money is what people are looking for. For those who know what that means.

 

[kkck]

From what I read bezos simply doesn't come from money. He seems to come from a middle class background at the most from parents who worked normal jobs and divorced. Musk iirc had a more privileged background, apparently upper class. Going by wikipedia both his parents were apparently successful at their fields. His mom might be a celebrity in south africa? Dunno if musk comes from "old money" but at least on the financial end the information around does not read like he might have been short on cash. Unless his family cut him off or willingly refused to use his family's money.

 

[Sanity Check]

The point I was trying to make is Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates and Warren Buffett. They're all examples of how capitalism gives average and ordinary people the freedom and rights to improve their situation in life, start a business, patent ideas and become super wealthy. Capitalism allows for upwards mobility if someone is willing to invest the time and energy into pursuing it.

When in history have similar events occurred in socialist nations. Which allowed those in poverty to elevate their standard of living, patent ideas, start a business. Or otherwise enjoy many of the freedoms and rights those living in capitalist societies might take for granted? It could be fair to say socialist nations uphold the status quo. The wealthy remain wealthy while the poor are usually guaranteed to remain poor. Due to it replacing meritocracy with something closer resembling a caste system.

 

[Ramen]

The point I was trying to make is Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates and Warren Buffett. They're all examples of how capitalism gives average and ordinary people the freedom and rights to improve their situation in life, start a business, patent ideas and become super wealthy. Capitalism allows for upwards mobility if someone is willing to invest the time and energy into pursuing it.

When in history have similar events occurred in socialist nations. Which allowed those in poverty to elevate their standard of living, patent ideas, start a business. Or otherwise enjoy many of the freedoms and rights those living in capitalist societies might take for granted? It could be fair to say socialist nations uphold the status quo. The wealthy remain wealthy while the poor are usually guaranteed to remain poor. Due to it replacing meritocracy with something closer resembling a caste system.

That's not the point. People will point to Socialism and say OMG BAD MURDER COMMUNISM but Capitalism is just as bad if you do simple research.

Congrats to Bezos I guess. Can make 150 billion but can't treat his workers properly.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 21, 2020, Original Post Date: Apr 21, 2020 ---

It's also bad if you believe everything CNN and Fox say about the far left. Socialism is not the evil demon they make it out to be.

 

[Sanity Check]

Capitalism is just as bad if you do simple research.

And what simple research might that be?

Socialism is not the evil demon they make it out to be.

Its not an evil demon? Are you certain on that?

 

[Ramen]

And what simple research might that be?

US statistics. That's one example.

Its not an evil demon? Are you certain on that?

Yes. If you'd like, there are many ways to educate yourself on the subject.

TPUSA and CNN aren't.

 

[kkck]

The point I was trying to make is Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates and Warren Buffett. They're all examples of how capitalism gives average and ordinary people the freedom and rights to improve their situation in life, start a business, patent ideas and become super wealthy. Capitalism allows for upwards mobility if someone is willing to invest the time and energy into pursuing it.

When in history have similar events occurred in socialist nations. Which allowed those in poverty to elevate their standard of living, patent ideas, start a business. Or otherwise enjoy many of the freedoms and rights those living in capitalist societies might take for granted? It could be fair to say socialist nations uphold the status quo. The wealthy remain wealthy while the poor are usually guaranteed to remain poor. Due to it replacing meritocracy with something closer resembling a caste system.

Well, in a properly "socialist" state (as in, well to the left of what bernie runs on) such social mobility would be deemed abhorrent and outright immoral. Though I would make the case that this is not nearly as simple merely requiring investing time and energy. There are plenty of non work things that play a factor into this type of things, many of which you simply have no control over. Bill gates for instance was born into a well of family for instance but imagine if in turn he had been born dead poor and by age 18 he had to take care of hypothetical cripplingly ill parents... That wouldn't have left him much time do work on his career and such things.

As for social mobility, there really is a fair bit of context to consider. The US is a country that has seen a decrease in social mobility since the late 70s or 80s iirc. Meanwhile european countries to varying degrees have maintained better social mobility than the US over the same period. And in general, the wealth concentration we have seen over the past few decades is simply not good for social mobility.