Discussion Paris Terror Attacks

[Josef]

Horror. Tragedy.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34814203

 

[Anera]

I hope all French people here are fine, as well as their family and friends. I heard some foreigners were killed too, I feel so sorry for them.

I'm still shocked so I don't know what to say. I hoped no conflate will be done but it's too late, people already point at Muslims and migrants, it's horrible.

The atmosphere in France is not going to be great for the next monthes...

Be careful, nobody is safe. I hope your countries will be fine. I don't want new victims.

At the same time, I feel ashamed to be sad because of this attack when thousands of people already died in Syria...

---------- Post added at 07:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:26 PM ----------

Seems like my country is not the only one touched by an attack : Isis claims responsibility as suicide bombers kill dozens in Beirut

Can the creator of the topic change the title ? I feel awkward Paris is the only one to be in the spotlight...

 

[Gats]

I hope all French people here are fine, as well as their family and friends. I heard some foreigners were killed too, I feel so sorry for them.

I'm still shocked so I don't know what to say. I hoped no conflate will be done but it's too late, people already point at Muslims and migrants, it's horrible.

The atmosphere in France is not going to be great for the next monthes...

Be careful, nobody is safe. I hope your countries will be fine. I don't want new victims.

At the same time, I feel ashamed to be sad because of this attack when thousands of people already died in Syria...

---------- Post added at 07:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:26 PM ----------

Seems like my country is not the only one touched by an attack : Isis claims responsibility as suicide bombers kill dozens in Beirut

Can the creator of the topic change the title ? I feel awkward Paris is the only one to be in the spotlight...

I understand you're being confused by the events, but there is nothing to be ashamed when you grieve for those who are closest to you. I don't want to reduce the level of tragedy simply by a kill count. Would you feel ashamed to be more affected by the death of people of your family or be more worried when people you'cre close to are living nearby the hot spot ?

That's natural. It doesn't mean you don't care about the others.

There is nothing wrong being more patriot at this point, solidarity is what is the most needed in such situation.

 

[Anera]

I understand you're being confused by the events, but there is nothing to be ashamed when you grieve for those who are closest to you. I don't want to reduce the level of tragedy simply by a kill count. Would you feel ashamed to be more affected by the death of people of your family or be more worried when people you'cre close to are living nearby the hot spot ?

That's natural. It doesn't mean you don't care about the others.

There is nothing wrong being more patriot at this point, solidarity is what is the most needed in such situation.

Hmm, you're right. But I still think, regarding Beyrouth, it's a bit shameful that the mass medias don't talk about it... It's understandable that French newspapers don't talk about that, we're in mourning but basically, worldwide medias only talk about the attacks in Paris like it's more important... It's a bit unfair imo. (but it's not the time for debates)

But I grieve anyway, I can't help feeling bad about all that, the multiple deaths in Syria don't change that.

 

[Hamy]

Hmm, you're right. But I still think, regarding Beyrouth, it's a bit shameful that the mass medias don't talk about it... It's understandable that French newspapers don't talk about that, we're in mourning but basically, worldwide medias only talk about the attacks in Paris like it's more important... It's a bit unfair imo. (but it's not the time for debates)

But I grieve anyway, I can't help feeling bad about all that, the multiple deaths in Syria don't change that.

Well its true that other countries certainly have their own tragedies and that France is getting more highlight but as you said this is more the choice of mass media, rather than a choice by individuals as to what they want to be informed about. The rest is obviously a matter of which media is more influential on a global scale, and this is a matter of economics itself.

However, you have to differentiate one thing about those tragedies. Well for Syria it should be obvious, as it is a result of a failed state in itself and these are the consequences. Whereas, Lebanon is more a result of long standing tensions and bad blood. As well as the fundamental warring difference in their beliefs, of Sunni and Shia. In both cases, blood shed in unfortunately is less avoidable, because circumstances have led it to be so.

Whereas, with France its vulnerability made it a prime target to be used as an example, more so because of its role in the international community. It is more chilling in so much that it was meant to serve as a warning to all, the attack being more about the symbol that it represents.

I don't think the attention given should necessarily be a question of whose lives are valued more, as I notice some writers are doing. Because going on this train of thought would only give in to what the terrorist acts want out of these attacks, to demoralize and undermine solidarity ultimately questioning your state spurring on more negative feelings as a result. It runs that risk.

Rather what is needed as posted is patriotism or solidarity, to recognize yourself as part of that state for a more united front. To no give in to what the terrorist had hoped to accomplish by making France an example, of questioning the state and being left in fear -- ultimately creating more conflicts from within and around.

While yes Beirut and Paris have common denominators ultimately they stand for two very different things, so I don't think it wise to just lump them together on the account of what they have in common.

 

[M3J]

Hmm, you're right. But I still think, regarding Beyrouth, it's a bit shameful that the mass medias don't talk about it... It's understandable that French newspapers don't talk about that, we're in mourning but basically, worldwide medias only talk about the attacks in Paris like it's more important... It's a bit unfair imo. (but it's not the time for debates)

But I grieve anyway, I can't help feeling bad about all that, the multiple deaths in Syria don't change that.

My theory: majority of people don't give a crap what goes on in non-west countries. I wouldn't be shocked if some of them wouldn't feel bad that Beirut and Ankara saw terrorist attacks. No doubt media is the worst though, with how it selectively chooses news to show.

But RIP to all the victims of these terrorist attacks in so many different areas. I wish there were ways to help the surviving victims and the families. Fuck ISIS, they deserve the most painful death imaginable. People who claim all Muslims are terrorists or something similar are just as bad, as well.

 

[Anera]

Well its true that other countries certainly have their own tragedies and that France is getting more highlight but as you said this is more the choice of mass media, rather than a choice by individuals as to what they want to be informed about. The rest is obviously a matter of which media is more influential on a global scale, and this is a matter of economics itself.

To answer you on this part, the message of M3J is true :

My theory: majority of people don't give a crap what goes on in non-west countries. I wouldn't be shocked if some of them wouldn't feel bad that Beirut and Ankara saw terrorist attacks. No doubt media is the worst though, with how it selectively chooses news to show.

The sentences in bold are linked. I worked for one month in a press agency and they choose their subjects based on what people WANT to hear. Of course, we don't force them to be so selective but press agencies perfectly know what will happen if they focus on topics people don't care about : lose of money. And nobody in Occident give a crap about North African and Arabic countries. I talked about Beirut attack with a friend, he answered me : "They can't stop to fight in this kind of countries, it's not surprising... They're used to lose their relatives." And so what ? Their deaths are less important ? And I didn't mention to him his argument "they can't stop to fight" is lame, since ISIS is the one who commit this attack... It was not a domestic conflict.

However, you have to differentiate one thing about those tragedies. Well for Syria it should be obvious, as it is a result of a failed state in itself and these are the consequences. Whereas, Lebanon is more a result of long standing tensions and bad blood. As well as the fundamental warring difference in their beliefs, of Sunni and Shia. In both cases, blood shed in unfortunately is less avoidable, because circumstances have led it to be so.

Whereas, with France its vulnerability made it a prime target to be used as an example, more so because of its role in the international community. It is more chilling in so much that it was meant to serve as a warning to all, the attack being more about the symbol that it represents.

I don't think the attention given should necessarily be a question of whose lives are valued more, as I notice some writers are doing. Because going on this train of thought would only give in to what the terrorist acts want out of these attacks, to demoralize and undermine solidarity ultimately questioning your state spurring on more negative feelings as a result. It runs that risk.

Rather what is needed as posted is patriotism or solidarity, to recognize yourself as part of that state for a more united front. To no give in to what the terrorist had hoped to accomplish by making France an example, of questioning the state and being left in fear -- ultimately creating more conflicts from within and around.

While yes Beirut and Paris have common denominators ultimately they stand for two very different things, so I don't think it wise to just lump them together on the account of what they have in common.

I agree we have to be united. Which is not going to be easy with French politics already first in line to take advantage of the events to shine with their disgusting statements. But questionning our gouvernment and its actions is not a bad thing... The situation in the Middle-East is a result of our actions, whether we like it or not. We can't bury our heads in the sand just because we lose hundreds of people... I'm not saying we have to give in to the terror, ISIS can just go to hell, we're not going to submit to them.

I agree the attacks in Beirut and Paris were not made for the same reasons. It doesn't change the fact it's unfair only France get the condolences of the entire world. Even Lebanon provides their moral support to us... It seems obvious imo we have to do the same.

I let you guess after what I said I don't care about France's important role in the international community. It's also a way to rank deaths based on the country and I don't like that.

---------- Post added at 02:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:19 PM ----------

And it is easier said than done to talk about disregarding or not caring for its role in the international community yet...

Yeah, you're right, it's true I can disregard that point because I come from a rich country... If I was from a poor one, I would actually care about the role played by my country in the international community... Sorry, it was a bit insensitive.

Is precisely a result of that intervention and role... and ultimately about what actions are to be taken from this point on. Stakes have just gotten a whole lot higher now, and I think this is more or less a point of no return -- since I doubt anybody wants to give in to these threats.

Again it is a slippery slope to go down the route of trying to disregard the role in the international community, because that is inevitably what they want -- to reign in foreign interventions by making people more reluctant or less concerned about such involvements or roles.

Oh no, I think forein interventions can be useful but it's obvious that, until now, it was clearly a failure. It proves our governments didn't take right decisions and use wrong ways to settle the situation... But anyway, even if we eradicate ISIS, other groups are going to replace them. (I'm sure Al-Qaida is nostalgic of its former "glorious reputation"... ) But we're going off-topic if we talk about that.

It is a vicious circle as it is, because part of the perceptions of people are after all shaped by how media had opted to portray X or Y prior and this unfortunately is the result of this. I don't necessarily agree that this is what people want to see but rather what they've already been conditioned to see or become familiar with seeing. So that its much easier to sell them something they can more readily identify or validate their views than something new. It is an older issue than anything, that stems back from the gulf-war, but I think we'd be veering off topic if we explore this more in-depth.

Though I think the point here is that I don't agree that it was a conscious choice to rank deaths, as implied, but a long standing issue in itself with how media had always tackled the middle-east.

I don't think there is disagreement in this respect only that I think they should stand on their own rather than a companion piece or continuation of one over the other.

I agree, Beirut and Paris attacks were different, I just wanted to point out the news-making, which is always in favor of the Occident. I think we have to be united in France but basically, I hope for solidarity around the world, so giving priority in some way at a handful of countries, preferably Western countries, is just going to divide people. (mainly because of medias and statements from our politicians)

But based on what you said, I think we agree on that. (tell me if I'm wrong)

 

[M3J]

the way I see it, it's due to racism. Lot of western/white people seem not to care about what goes on in countries that aren't predominantly white or western, so they overlook it (Ankara), use it to spread hatred (Beirut and how Muslims are evil and should be killed), politicize it (against Islam, Islam immigration, more guns, what-have-you), or try to sound cool when in reality the're so misinformed (I think it was mix of different races that said they supported Kony).

 

[Erinyes]

 

[M3J]

in regards to accepting Syrian refugees: http://s.nj.com/yJqbhyL

Out of numerous refugees accepted into the country, only two were arrested. Makes me wonder who's really dangerous, especially when there are white people shooting up theaters and other public places.

 

[bresu]

I don’t know if I can post that here, but these events remind me of this song :

Get Misunderstood

The text at the beginning is extracted from "La Naissance de l'amour", film directed by Philippe Garrel.

I like this text… I think about it often… and I’m not really optimistic :/

 

[TitaniumOxide]

No doubt that this shit is horrible but people the world over is bracing for more to come. It is not if an earthquake strikes in southern california or when a typhoon hits beijing, it is "when" especially when these places have been threatened repeatedly.

I support anonymous going after IS. I support the hellfire rained down on them by different nations...but there is a way bigger picture. Seems like the whole world is in on this good guys vs radicals thing but some of the good guys do not like each other too much. I hope this doesn't somehow escalate into a world war. I mean half the world is already in this turmoil. Pretty much only South America is free from this but they do have their cartels.

Fallout got it right. "War. War never changes."

 

[kannazuki]

I expect Anonymous is in a good place to target Daesh (I refuse to call them ISIS/ISIL like they want to be called). I hope Anonymous keeps up whatever it is they've been doing, and maybe they'll have some breakthroughs in terms of attacking Daesh's online presence.

Other than that the #1 way to fight them (outside of arresting them all - alive) is by acknowledging that they are NOT a "state" and actual muslims carry no responsibility for a what is essentially an organized crime racket. The people who like to paint the fight against them as "clash of civilizations" or call them an "Islamic state" are giving them way too much credit, and the people who attack mosques or innocent women in hijabs/niqabs/burqas (such incidents have been on the rise across the West) are literally helping Daesh's supposed "cause" of creating a divide between their idea of muslims (because they sure have no problem killing massive numbers of muslims right along with every other group that disagrees with them) and the rest of the world that in their fantasy world will have people running to them. Their BS version of Islam doesn't even involve the Qu'ran, if journalist Didier François' (who was held by them 10 months) analysis is accurate.

I agree this is similar to a world war, except there is no nation in the world that is allied with Daesh, and I think it's a grave mistake to give them what they want and recognize their illegal "caliphate" by calling it an "Islamic state."

 

[M3J]

France is accepting Syrian refugees again, and in the meanwhile US is arguing whether to accept them or not. GOP isn't helping with their misleading bullshit, and silly racists, conservatives, and republicans aren't even bothering to check the facts. If they did, then no one would have an issue with the refugees.

 

[xi0]

France is accepting Syrian refugees again, and in the meanwhile US is arguing whether to accept them or not. GOP isn't helping with their misleading bullshit, and silly racists, conservatives, and republicans aren't even bothering to check the facts. If they did, then no one would have an issue with the refugees.

It has nothing to do with refugees in the first place. All of the known terrorists in the Paris attacks were EU citizens. Just look at the recent attack in California, the husband was a citizen. The topic is just another example of fearmongering.

 

[M3J]

It has nothing to do with refugees in the first place. All of the known terrorists in the Paris attacks were EU citizens. Just look at the recent attack in California, the husband was a citizen. The topic is just another example of fearmongering.

Do you think people will care, or that the GOP will say that? There are plenty of people on my FB feed saying they're scared that the US won't vet the refugees carefully enough or aren't careful, even though there is proof that the country's vetting process is pretty stringent. Funnily, many of them who didn't give a shit now give a shit about the homeless and the vets.

 

[kannazuki]

Please link people who are concerned about "security" to this twitter essay. It's by a Bosnian who arrived in the US in the 1990s and it lays out the details of just how stringent the process for refugees is, including turning in all your paper records (not just ID but bills and everything), identifying all your living family members around the world, the UN asks you a series of questions and then asks every family member (regardless of age) the same questions about you to check the stories are straight-- for each individual applying for refugee status-- etc., etc.. It's a multi-year process before they even get to the point of the UN referring them to any particular country. No terrorist group is going to go through years of stringent security checks when they can just use a tourist visa or a fake passport... or increasingly (at least in the case of Daesh) attempt to radicalize unhappy/marginalized/isolated people that already live in the target country.

 

[Anera]

Do you think people will care, or that the GOP will say that? There are plenty of people on my FB feed saying they're scared that the US won't vet the refugees carefully enough or aren't careful, even though there is proof that the country's vetting process is pretty stringent. Funnily, many of them who didn't give a shit now give a shit about the homeless and the vets.

I completely agree. It's the current sitation in France, which is becoming more racist/sexist/homophobic, if it's even possible... Of course the attacks have nothing to do with refugees, but people obviously love conflate so, for them, all muslims/refugees are potential terrorists. I've tried almost everyday to fight that horridous point of view but even the most moderates among my relatives defend muslims reluctantly. And like M3J said, all of a sudden, they defend the homeless ? When they were just considered like trash before ? And when you point out these contradictions, you're a spoilsport.

The extended state of emergency is complete bullshit, especially when we know about the damage made by the authorities and the identities of most of the people who was searched in the end : ecologists. COP21. How convenient. (and I don't mention how muslims are treated...) Demonstrating is not allowed for the three next monthes so we can't protest if our government make abusive laws. All for our "security". Or maybe our government is trying to protect itself from his own people ? We're mature enough to know the risks when we go out... Strasbourg's Christmas market has been retained, seems like money is more important than the security in this case. And if I have to mention all the unfair possibilities ensured by this state of emergency, I would spend more than a hour to write about it.

The first round of the last elections was a complete disaster, the extreme right-wing got 40% in some regions... It's not the presidential elections but that says a lot about how it's going to happen anyway.

I needed to evacuate my frustration.

 

[M3J]

Please link people who are concerned about "security" to this twitter essay. It's by a Bosnian who arrived in the US in the 1990s and it lays out the details of just how stringent the process for refugees is, including turning in all your paper records (not just ID but bills and everything), identifying all your living family members around the world, the UN asks you a series of questions and then asks every family member (regardless of age) the same questions about you to check the stories are straight-- for each individual applying for refugee status-- etc., etc.. It's a multi-year process before they even get to the point of the UN referring them to any particular country. No terrorist group is going to go through years of stringent security checks when they can just use a tourist visa or a fake passport... or increasingly (at least in the case of Daesh) attempt to radicalize unhappy/marginalized/isolated people that already live in the target country.

Linking people won't work. You're assuming racists, right wings, and conservatives actually listen to facts that don't agree with them. Look at how many people are voting for Trump, how republicans purposely used deceit against Planned Parenthood, and how Cruz is full of shit but doesn't seem to get called out on it by republicans.

I completely agree. It's the current sitation in France, which is becoming more racist/sexist/homophobic, if it's even possible... Of course the attacks have nothing to do with refugees, but people obviously love conflate so, for them, all muslims/refugees are potential terrorists. I've tried almost everyday to fight that horridous point of view but even the most moderates among my relatives defend muslims reluctantly. And like M3J said, all of a sudden, they defend the homeless ? When they were just considered like trash before ? And when you point out these contradictions, you're a spoilsport.

The extended state of emergency is complete bullshit, especially when we know about the damage made by the authorities and the identities of most of the people who was searched in the end : ecologists. COP21. How convenient. (and I don't mention how muslims are treated...) Demonstrating is not allowed for the three next monthes so we can't protest if our government make abusive laws. All for our "security". Or maybe our government is trying to protect itself from his own people ? We're mature enough to know the risks when we go out... Strasbourg's Christmas market has been retained, seems like money is more important than the security in this case. And if I have to mention all the unfair possibilities ensured by this state of emergency, I would spend more than a hour to write about it.

The first round of the last elections was a complete disaster, the extreme right-wing got 40% in some regions... It's not the presidential elections but that says a lot about how it's going to happen anyway.

I needed to evacuate my frustration.

Didn't France reopen its gates to Syrian refuges again?

 

[kannazuki]

Linking people won't work. You're assuming racists, right wings, and conservatives actually listen to facts that don't agree with them. Look at how many people are voting for Trump, how republicans purposely used deceit against Planned Parenthood, and how Cruz is full of shit but doesn't seem to get called out on it by republicans.

I didn't say you should have a dialogue with them or that you should necessarily expect such people to change their minds, though. Just that it's better to be the one who posts something thoughtful focused around learning about/getting to better understand complex issues like this, as opposed to remaining silent. Just putting that on your wall without directing it at anyone might get some of the less hardline people to think again about putting their ignorance on display. (I'm actually thinking about a specific study that showed that the less people with bigoted views are challenged, the more okay they think it is to spout off, and the more they spout off, the more people they influence.)