Shounen Naruto by Masashi Kishimoto

[Orion]

@MUIMadara @Jammin @lakhan220 @Rikudou King

Curious what to do you guys think of the Indra and Ashura reincarnation. Indra was the genius and Ashura was the one who rallied people.

And yet Hashirama was a genius who Madara couldn't surpass and was a step behind.

Naruto obviously had issues, but Sasuke wasn't really a prodigy either? He was top of his class, but wasn't what the academy saw in Minato, Itachi, and Kakashi

 

[Ramen]

@MUIMadara @Jammin @lakhan220 @Rikudou King

Curious what to do you guys think of the Indra and Ashura reincarnation. Indra was the genius and Ashura was the one who rallied people.

And yet Hashirama was a genius who Madara couldn't surpass and was a step behind.

Naruto obviously had issues, but Sasuke wasn't really a prodigy either? He was top of his class, but wasn't what the academy saw in Minato, Itachi, and Kakashi

I think it was more metaphorical in the sense that two rivals with two rival jutsus. Ashura, Hashi and Naruto walked the path of light and never gave up, and their strength came from their comrades.

Indra, Madara and Sasuke walked the power of darkness, susanoo, and had their own vision

 

[Orion]

I think it was more metaphorical in the sense that two rivals with two rival jutsus. Ashura, Hashi and Naruto walked the path of light and never gave up, and their strength came from their comrades.

Indra, Madara and Sasuke walked the power of darkness, susanoo, and had their own vision

Indra-Sasuke, and Ashura-Naruto makes sense this way and if you just compare their skills in a vacuum.

I think Hashirama and Madara is where it falls apart. Madara and Hashirama were similar until black zetsu came.

 

[Ramen]

Indra-Sasuke, and Ashura-Naruto makes sense this way and if you just compare their skills in a vacuum.

I think Hashirama and Madara is where it falls apart. Madara and Hashirama were similar until black zetsu came.

Hasirama and Madara made sense in the way of two rivals ho used to be basically brothers.

 

[Orion]

Hasirama and Madara made sense in the way of two rivals ho used to be basically brothers.

I think the best way to think about it was Ashura put all his chips on Hashirama to change the dynamic, haha. He would’ve if it wasn’t for that doodoo

 

[Rikudou King]

You mean when he got double MS, right? I don't really consider that Kakashi since it was basically a one time fusion.

Even before that. I would say around the Kakuzu fight was where I began seeing him as a different character then previously.

@MUIMadara @Jammin @lakhan220 @Rikudou King

Curious what to do you guys think of the Indra and Ashura reincarnation. Indra was the genius and Ashura was the one who rallied people.

And yet Hashirama was a genius who Madara couldn't surpass and was a step behind.

Naruto obviously had issues, but Sasuke wasn't really a prodigy either? He was top of his class, but wasn't what the academy saw in Minato, Itachi, and Kakashi

I think the main problem is that the series tried to make it an either/or situation - either you're a genius or you can draw people to you, which clearly falls apart when looking at people like Minato and Hashirama. It didn't help that the definition for genius basically ended up being someone who was lucky to be born with good abilities... Both Neji and Sasuke were touted as genius compared to Rock Lee and Naruto, yet we saw them working just as hard to gain their strength as the latter two. I would say the same with Hashirama and Madara, both were shown capable and smart leaders, with the only difference being that Madara ended up not caring about anything but getting his jollies from fighting Hashirama. A better dynamic would have been selfishness verses the ability to put others before yourself. Something like the dynamic between Ling and King Bradley from FMA over what it meant to be "king". That would have made much more sense, as both Madara and Sasuke were shown willing to sacrifice everyone else for their own desires, whereas Hashirama and Naruto put their own lives on the line for others.

I suppose Sasuke would have been considered a prodigy solely in comparison to his other classmates, with Shikamaru only not counting because of his laziness. I have to say though, that Itachi seems like the only one who could be considered an actual prodigy given what we were told about him.

 

[Ramen]

@Rikudou King @Benomaru @lakhan220 @Benomaru

Ok, here's a couple I see debates happen.

Itachi vs Pain
Kakashi (No Susasnoo) vs Kisame
Kakuzu vs Hidan
Tobirama vs Minato

Also, @Benomaru, why Third Kazekage over Gaara?

 

[Jammin]

Naruto fandom: Kakashi is awesome, this guy lost so many people in his life and never turned evil.

@Jammin: Allow me to educate you

My education is quite thorough with the Naruto fandom, I assure you. I have a lot of fond memories about the Naruto section to. I had to be a top 3 NaruSaku shipper. Which didn't end well, needless to say.

With time and distance I feel like I've gained more perspective. Which allows me to appreciate the series for what it did well and acknowledge what it didn't do with less vitriol.

I think the main problem is that the series tried to make it an either/or situation - either you're a genius or you can draw people to you, which clearly falls apart when looking at people like Minato and Hashirama. It didn't help that the definition for genius basically ended up being someone who was lucky to be born with good abilities... Both Neji and Sasuke were touted as genius compared to Rock Lee and Naruto, yet we saw them working just as hard to gain their strength as the latter two. I would say the same with Hashirama and Madara, both were shown capable and smart leaders, with the only difference being that Madara ended up not caring about anything but getting his jollies from fighting Hashirama. A better dynamic would have been selfishness verses the ability to put others before yourself. Something like the dynamic between Ling and King Bradley from FMA over what it meant to be "king". That would have made much more sense, as both Madara and Sasuke were shown willing to sacrifice everyone else for their own desires, whereas Hashirama and Naruto put their own lives on the line for others.

I suppose Sasuke would have been considered a prodigy solely in comparison to his other classmates, with Shikamaru only not counting because of his laziness. I have to say though, that Itachi seems like the only one who could be considered an actual prodigy given what we were told about him.

There are so many things Kishi could have done. But in the end he didn't do any of them. Which I really think boils down to how he was talented at telling smaller stories. Like the first real arc with Haku. That a was a great story. And like the whole Sasuke pursuit arc was terrific, especially Neji's part. So was the Pain invasion. But telling a great longform story is about making those puzzle pieces fit together and a consistent way in order to deliver a message and he was just so bad at that. Any consistent message would have worked. Living for yourself versus living for others. The meaning of power and responsibility. Choice and consiquence. Fate is what you make it. Instead he just ended up with a bunch of bad untended themes. Nepotism. Elitism. Might makes right.

In hindsight, it's funny how bad some of those things turned out to be. Like how elitist Naruto turned out to be thematically. It's like Kishi was trying to get away from that early on with all the underdog stuff, like he knew the risks there, but he just couldn't do it. The bloodlines, the clans. Are Sakura and Rock Lee the only major characters without some sort of pedigree by the end? If your parents weren't somebody special in that universe you were basically screwed.

 

[Orion]

@Rikudou King @Benomaru @lakhan220 @Benomaru

Ok, here's a couple I see debates happen.

Itachi vs Pain
Kakashi (No Susasnoo) vs Kisame
Kakuzu vs Hidan
Tobirama vs Minato

Also, @Benomaru, why Third Kazekage over Gaara?

Itachi vs Pain: Itachi can't spam Amaterasu liks EMS Sasuke could as we discussed before, but I'll still go with itachi. Lakhan says genjutsu would work, so Itachi could control the fight that way. I do wonder how the yata mirror would react to shinra tensei.

Kakashi v. Kisame: We're not talking about double MS right? If so, I would take Kisame, tailed beast chakra, samehada, and took down Bee. I don't think he can kamui him especially if Kisame changes surroundings to water.

Kakuzu v. Hidan: Kakuzu, though technically Hidan wouldn't be dead. Kakuzu basically has four lives, so even if one affected by the ritual, the other three gang up on him.

Tobirama v. Minato: I go with Tobirama if Minato doesn't have KCM.

Why third kazekage? I really hate going by other's statements and we haven't even seen the third kazekage. It's really just how hyped up iron sand was.

 

[Ramen]

Itachi vs Pain: Itachi can't spam Amaterasu liks EMS Sasuke could as we discussed before, but I'll still go with itachi. Lakhan says genjutsu would work, so Itachi could control the fight that way. I do wonder how the yata mirror would react to shinra tensei.

This one is tough and could go either way. But since I'm bias I'll go Itachi in an extreme diff fight.

Kakashi v. Kisame: We're not talking about double MS right? If so, I would take Kisame, tailed beast chakra, samehada, and took down Bee. I don't think he can kamui him especially if Kisame changes surroundings to water.

No since that was Obito that gave him that extra boost and Madara took the eye away. Kisame wins. He's underrated.

Kakuzu v. Hidan: Kakuzu, though technically Hidan wouldn't be dead. Kakuzu basically has four lives, so even if one affected by the ritual, the other three gang up on him.

Kakuzu stomps. I don't care what anyone says. Hidan's zombie bs isn't gonna help.

Tobirama v. Minato: I go with Tobirama if Minato doesn't have KCM.

Was Tobirama faster than Minato? Plus, KCM is apart of him so he has it.

Why third kazekage? I really hate going by other's statements and we haven't even seen the third kazekage. It's really just how hyped up iron sand was.

Nah I'd go with Gaara still.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 28, 2020, Original Post Date: Mar 28, 2020 ---

@Benomaru Ok, what about Mu vs Ohnoki.

 

[Orion]

Was Tobirama faster than Minato? Plus, KCM is apart of him so he has it.

Well KCM was after death. If we’re talking them in their primes while alive, Minato has the speed, but I’d take Tobirama mostly everything else.

Nah I'd go with Gaara still.

It’s basically coin flip, lol.

I think I’d go with Ohnoki, the geezer did some pretty impressive things in the war and Madara was impressed with how he’s improved.

 

[Ramen]

I think I’d go with Ohnoki, the geezer did some pretty impressive things in the war and Madara was impressed with how he’s improved.

Ngl, Mu was my favourite Kage that wasn't from Konoha.

 

[Orion]

Ngl, Mu was my favourite Kage that wasn't from Konoha.

Just gonna say the mizukages are complete trash

 

[Ramen]

Just gonna say the mizukages are complete trash

Mei was only good for fanservice. Lmao Kinshiki dummied Chojuro. I hate all the raikages.

It goes:

Hokage=Kazekages>>Tsuchikage>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Raikage=Mizukage

 

[Orion]

Raikage got Sasuke’d, once that happens characters don’t recover, lol. This dude then lost to Naruto in speed battle, Bee knocked his ass down, and then Madara took out the trash

 

[Ramen]

Raikage got Sasuke’d, once that happens characters don’t recover, lol. This dude then lost to Naruto in speed battle, Bee knocked his ass down, and then Madara took out the trash

I hate the Raikage more than I hate Gray Fullbuster.

 

[Orion]

I hate the Raikage more than I hate Gray Fullbuster.

This dude Gray really said Ur and Lyon when Aldoron said image of the strongest. That is case number seven million why using statements in FT is nonsenical.

 

[Ramen]

This dude Gray really said Ur and Lyon when Aldoron said image of the strongest. That is case number seven million why using statements in FT is nonsenical.

Right? Gray is supposed to be the smart one but thinks of them? That's diss to every character. Even Ur is probably laughing from the stupidity.

 

[Rikudou King]

Itachi vs Pain

Given we more or less saw this in the series itself, it would go to Itachi. We saw Itachi was capable of countering the Paths' abilities, and it would be more easier to deal with them with the individual bodies of Pain.

Kakashi (No Susasnoo) vs Kisame

I would say the odds favor Kisame. Kakashi's one weakness is his low chakra, and Kisame stealing an already limited resource would give him the advantage. As far as we saw, Kisame was quite OP, enough that he could solo a Jinchuuriki.

Kakuzu vs Hidan

Kakuzu, he would be able to immobilize Hidan well before Hidan could ever kill all five of his hearts.

Tobirama vs Minato

Probably Minato, his teleportation was shown superior, and we really didn't get anything else from Tobirama that could give him an advantage.

In hindsight, it's funny how bad some of those things turned out to be. Like how elitist Naruto turned out to be thematically. It's like Kishi was trying to get away from that early on with all the underdog stuff, like he knew the risks there, but he just couldn't do it. The bloodlines, the clans. Are Sakura and Rock Lee the only major characters without some sort of pedigree by the end? If your parents weren't somebody special in that universe you were basically screwed.

Gai as far as we know wasn't connected to anyone, and he got to be shown powerful enough to go up against Madara. But yeah, it's a shame things all came down to whichever clan/bloodline someone was apart of. One of the things I'm most sad about is that the storyline of ninjas who have a bloodline limit being hated and discriminated against was pretty much dropped after Part One. That would have been really cool to see explored and be used as justification for a massive war instead of Obito playing around for no reason.

 

[Orion]

Alright guys who do you prefer:

Masked Obito or Madara

I'm not talking who's stronger, lol. But as a character, what version did you prefer.

Don't kill me, but I prefer masked Obito.