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Rules Mafia Game Rules & Roles

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GrySun

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General rules

-This should be all the roles in the correct priority, best someone else also review it.

1. PRIORITY - "ROLE BLOCKING"

Prostitute, Bar Keeper, Mafia Escort(when blocking).

2. PRIORITY - "SAVING & INVESTIGATING" (& more)

Detective(all sanities), Investigator, Spy(and paranoid), Mortician, Doctor(all sanities, Insane Doc only when protecting), Bodyguard, Hider, Sickly Townie, Bomb Diffusing Townie, Apprentice(both sanities), Mafia Detective(when investigating), Santa Claus.

3. PRIORITY - "KILLING & RECRUITING"

Insane Doctor(when killing), Pirate, Time Bomb, Kamikaze Bomb, Recruiting Mason, Mafia Boss, Mafia Detective(when killing), Mafia Janitor, Mafia Poisoner(both killing and poisoning), Mafia Assassin, Mafia Mason, Strongman, Burden, Bomb Diffuser, Mafia Escort(when killing), Unskilled Mafia, Mafia Pirate(both killing and stealing), Mafia Bomb, Mafia Gambler(when killing), Serial Killer, Mentor(both killing and recruiting), Mentee.

Others are either Day Active(priorities with them depend on who sends in their PM or makes their action post first) or are passive and can't do anything.

*Note about Insane Doctor: I usually take it that he protects in priority 2 and kills in priority 3, so first you’d need the cointoss to decide which action it does and then depending on that he has different priorities. I could be wrong though but made most sense to me that way and I do his priority that way.

*Not included Hypnotist because it was taken out, not sure why it’s still in the role list, I don’t see it getting re-included.

*Unrelated to the priorities and rather small, but Recruiting Mason should be renamed to Mason Recruiter and iirc people wanted Apprentice renamed to Stalker.

- Is the priority of all night actions that would interact decided by a coin flip? For example, if a Mafia Escort decides to block a player and a Prostitute blocks the Escort, does the Escort's target get blocked?
Yes. Higher priorities come first, and priority conflicts in the same priority group are always resolved with a coinflip. Many times in-group priorities can be very significant so don't do it only for killings and blocking.
In your example, a cointoss is needed to see who blocks first. If Prostitute wins it, Escort is blocked before being able to block his target so his target doesn't get blocked. If Escort wins his target is blocked.

- Can a mafia member other than the Boss send the host a PM with a different target or perpetrator than what was "democratically" decided during the night phase, or is it an infraction punishable by the host? If it's not an infraction, what happens if two mafia members other than the Boss both send the host a PM with the mafia's night actions, but indicating conflicting targets or perpetrators?
No I would not allow those, since it goes against the whole purpose of having a pad and discussing things. A traitor within the group has to convince others with words on what to do instead of making a sneaky PM.

--------------------------------------------------------------------​

The rest I will just number instead of quoting.

1. Spy only gets back a result if the target did something(1 targeted 2), else he gets back nothing. That nothing either means the Spy was blocked, his target was blocked, his target did nothing that night or his target couldn't even do anything since he's passive.

The bolded/underlined part needs to be discussed though.

2. No. Imagine the Paranoid Spy to be the same as the normal Spy, except that when he'd usually get back his result the target of his target gets randomized to any player in the game.

3. & 4. Yes and yes. Here's an example:

It's night 4, and the mortician investigates a guy who died at night 3. The mortician finds out all actions which were used on the dead guy, but doesn't find out who did these actions.
So for example a detective targeted the dead guy in night 1, a doctor targeted him in night 2, and a mafia killed him in night 3.
So the Mortician gets the following PM:
Night 1 he was investigated, Night 2 he was protected, Night 3 he was killed.

If a politician made him change his vote at some day the mortician would find that out too. He doesn't know what roles did it like in your example, so he's not finding out whether he was blocked by Prostitute or a Mafia Escort. Would be kinda broken.

5. Yes, the target is safe from anything that would kill him that night(Strongman overrides it). I think the exceptions are lovers suicide and time/kamikaze bomb suicide. But I could be wrong about the exceptions.

6. Imagine him like a regular doctor, except that his action doesn't keep anyone safe. So he does make a night action, they would die to PGO and Spy would detect it, Mortician would detect it too.

7. Strongman would kill the bodyguard instead of the target. Bodyguard redirects the kill onto himself.

This is also an interesting Spy interaction. What does Spy find out when targeting the killer whose kill was redirected onto the Bodyguard? Imo that one needs a cointoss, if Spy wins he sees the original target, if Bodyguard wins he sees the target to be the Bodyguard.

8. As the role is right now, Martyr can only mark 1 player at a time. He can send as many PMs as he wants during the day to change it.
I think Martyr should also protect the marked player from all other daytime deaths, such as Prosecutor, Vigilante, Assassin etc. So that one should be added to the role description. Whether he needs the buff to mark more than 1 player at once could be discussed.

9. As it stands right now, yes Hider dies whenever the one he hides behind dies, regardless what caused the death. That should perhaps be changed to the same conditions as the Bodyguard(when the target is being kill-targeted the same night).

10. Of course, provided PGO hasn't killed a player before Hider hides behind him.

11. Depends, the Bulletproof description could be interpreted both ways. Imo Bulletproof should be immune to any and all possible deaths at night, except the Strongman.

12. Yes, Bulletproof is only immune at night.

13. It's decided by the host. IIRC 3 people were always used whenever a host used it(at least me and Evil always did so), so perhaps the 3-5 should just be changed to a normal 3. It's best for the role, regardless of the playersize perhaps, but that one can be discussed.

14. Yes. The redirect works like the paranoid spy, the target is completely randomed from the list and could hit any player. That includes the Bar Keeper himself or even his target. But whether a killer killing himself, doc protecting himself, det investigating himself etc. should work this way is questionable. Self-targeting isn't allowed generally, but when redirected? Should work imo.

15. I'd say those interactions with freeman/burden should be moved one day/night later. Else it'd be a bit complicated with certain interactions, or would need a written resolution for each individual one.

16. As you noticed, hosts make a spoiler tag with direct quotes of the players making their vote/lock/switch in their vote count posts. Those are in chronological order too. So yes, the person who locked in your example is the "last chronological voter" on that player and dies to the bomb.

17. Hm perhaps it's best to answer this by explaining the detective sanities:

Sane: Gets innocent for townies, guilty for non-townies. Is affected by everything that changes an investigation, like mafia boss, millers etc.
Insane: Always the complete opposite of what a sane detective would get on that player. Regardless of their actions and roles, a sane and insane detective cannot have the same result on the same player.
Naive: Only gets innocent on everyone, including boss, millers etc. Pretty useless troll role.
Paranoid: Only gets guilty on everyone, including boss, millers etc. Pretty useless troll role.

18. Investigator only works on players who die as "???" due to Janitor kills. If killed by Janitor, he would find out the "Mafia Member" role for both millers, same as when Janitor is killed and all his victim's roles are revealed.

19. I really don't know :XD This one needs input from Evil or someone who dealt with this, or we have to look at older games where Witch was used and was lynched.
But if I had to make my own interpretation from the role description... The curse is done as PM to the host when dead. In the 2nd night after the Witch is lynched, the player dies. Witch already cursed him prior, so the curse should be instant and kill the player before he can do anything that night. Also disregards any night protections, bodyguards etc. A powerful kill-curse.
If that's not the way this works, then it's likely with it being priority 3 and the rest being as usual.

20. As Apprentice works right now, he doesn't get updated on his progression. He is only given a host PM once his role is changed and notified what the role was. Previous progressions aren't overwritten, but he starts from scratch with his new teacher. He can return to his old teacher and continue where he left off there. And yes, if the teacher is blocked even if having a passive role, he learns nothing that night.
Whether this role needs changes due to being weak or not could be discussed, iirc James had some thoughts on it at the end of the JoJo game but nothing was ever changed in regards to that.

21. As the role is currently written, both sane and insane would copy the 3rd party roles. Unsure whether that needs to be changed. Would be quite a funny situation for the apprentice to explain to the town what role he found with his target, with them changing their win-conditions and all.

22. He would learn those roles and get the same description what the target got at the start of the game. So he wouldn't get "Sleeper" but "Regular Townie" for example, as Traitor he'd get to know all mafias(he can't win with town anymore as the role dictates).
As for Mason and Mason Recruiter, I'm unsure. I would recommend to make it that in both cases he joins the mason group of his teacher.

23. He gets the role and can use it, so a "new" vigilante/PGO with his own bullet and new working Bomb.

24. His role becomes Unskilled Mafia Member, with the 50% kill shot.

25. This one was never discussed, and I'm not sure which option is the best. He either has to lock right away, having him vote without locking but not allowing switching or having him vote but he can still switch and do whatever.
I'm for using the 2nd one, with him not having to lock but having to keep his vote on that player, but perhaps another one is better and less complicated.

26. No, locked vote is locked. Also if he locked before the host saw the PM, he can pick someone else for his action.

27. See 25. If going with the 1st or 3rd option, then he can still vote whatever. If going with 2nd option, he still can't switch off.

28. I'd have to go digging the older threads again for proof, but I once looked it up when I was unsure and found out that yes, PGO kills whoever targets him, regardless of what the targeting is. Even a role blocker like Prostitute/Escort. I don't remember how it's with a kill-action, it was either a cointoss who shoots first or PGO always killing his attacker first. Probably the latter. Should ask Evil for more clarification.

29. Was confused by the role description at one point and talked with Evil about it before. And no, mafia doesn't know there's a traitor in the game.

30. That was also part of my Traitor-talk with Evil. In your example, the mafia does not win. For the mafia, they are 3 and town are 4. Game continues, traitor has to get a mafia lynched that day in your scenario or he loses the game.

31. Sleeper gets recruited by the first mafia(who won the coin toss vs the second mafia) and the second mafia then kill him, showing him as a Mafia Member of the first mafia's color.

32.
See 17.

33. No, as with Janitor, Mason Recruiter and all roles that get a result from the host while they also belong to a group, only the person with that role gets the result and has to share it with others later.

34. See 11, with how I'd say he should work, the player would survive.

35. Of course. We even had gnut kill his mafia teammate with his assassin power once. Best and strongest role in the game.

36. No. When assassin kills at day, the next night his team can't do a kill.

37. I don't think that has ever happened, depends on the host. As long as it's nothing extremely convoluted and just an "I'm going to sleep, if I'm getting lynched or someone from my mafia kill X player" I would accept it. He would still have to specify the player name and not just say "kill one of the ones that voted on me" for example.

38. Both days. Assassin still the best role in the game.

38 part 2(you wrote 38 twice). See 15.

39. lol, as it's written, mafia diffuser can't diffuse kamikaze bomb and mafia bombs. Not sure if that's intended or there simply didn't exist a kamikaze bomb at the time it was written. I'd say both townie and mafia bomb should be able to diffuse all bombs. It's a night action and he can't kill the same night.

40. Yes he dies.

41. Mafia Pirate can kill instead of stealing, but once he steals a role he isn't a mafia pirate anymore, so he can only do what his new role allows him to.

42. I said it before, it makes the most sense to give both mafia the same usual win condition, and I also understand the role description that way. Once mafia has the same number of members as the other players, they win.

43. From you saying "even", this seems to be a much bigger problem than I thought. Hardy and Farf made that mistake once before where the description confused them, this definitely needs to be slightly reworded. Look at the Mentor role again, it says "the member dies", meaning the mafia member.
When Mentor targets a mafia/non-townie he kills that person, he never dies from using his ability like a mason recruiter. So he either recruits a townie or kills a non-townie.

44. No, all they have is a pad at night. Just like the lovers, masons, mafias. They all can't talk at day but can at night in their own pad.

45. Immediately, he's shown in the death post along with his mentor.

46. I understood it as him not knowing what his presents are nor being able to pick which one is sent out. I could be wrong, but it makes the most sense this way, since the hosts determine the present order at the start and Santa would then have to be given a randomized roles. And him knowing what his presents are is completely pointless since he doesn't know which ones he already gave away and what he has left. No strategical value for Santa to know his presents unless I'm overlooking something. Maybe another one to ask Evil about. Or James, he probably made this one too.

47. There's no strict regulation what the presents can be, so it's up to the host to make something meaningful and interesting/complementing the game in some way, not just useless and pointless things.

48. He's kinda deadlocked and screwed in that case. Hence why Santa is usually used in bigger games, it should be statistically impossible for him to run out of people to give presents to, unless he keeps getting blocked or forgets to send a PM, so yeah he's finished.

49. Saving Christmas :lmao I think he needs to not die that night. But I could be wrong, and both options sound okay in theory.

50. No, a townie lover is a townie, he'd be innocent for a sane detective.

51. Those investigative roles can't find out secondary abilities, just the primary role. Same with pirate stealing from a townie lover, he can't steal the Lover status, just the role itself. Feelings are immaterial.

52. Prosecutor only kills non-townies. A townie lover is still considered a townie.

53. I had that in one of my games, and I made it that evealing to a Bar Keeper while drunk also has you say you're a Lover. He'd reveal both his roles. Could be discussed, but imo makes the most sense that way.

54. Townie lover is still considered to be a townie. Becoming a Mason is like a Pirate stealing his role, Lover loses his primary role but stays a Lover. Feelings are still immaterial.

55. Had that one too in one of my games. I allowed the lover to make a final action. I'd say that's better than outright killing him. He gets to help his team one last time.

56. Can only be prevented by the threesome candidate, nothing else saves him that night.

57. Sure.

58. This one's a bit complicated, but his other lover should "know" that his lover is Jesus and wouldn't kill himself, knowing his love is returning. Feelings transcend the afterlife too. His death as Jesus shows as a simple regular townie without the lover part(probably) so that would be an interesting lover matchup. Still, lovers have different problems than just assigning them roles... One lover betraying the other(especially the mafia one) and taking advantage of the other guy is pretty much always going to happen, so that would need some checks and changes...

59. Yes, same reasons as said above, with only the primary role changing.

60. As the role description says, one has to be mafia and the other has to be town. But we had hosts like Ustegius and Panda ignore that and go with dual town/dual mafia lovers before, so we could change the role description to reflect on that possibility for more interesting ways to use lovers to balance a certain weird game. In theory there could even be more pairs of lovers than just one...

Also, Hardy and me talked about the Spy targeting a blocked person situation. For this we need to decide what blocking someone even means. There's 2 options:
-It means blocking the target role's effect. This way the target could still target others but nothing would happen, so Spy would still know who a blocked person targeted.
-It means blocking the target from acting. This way the target never even targeted someone else, so Spy would get back no results.

IMO the 2nd one is a lot more sensible. The first one would mean a blocker could block the passive effects of a bomb/bulletproof which isn't true.

If there's further questions about some of those or I made mistakes/overlooked something you can ask. Otherwise we'd need other people confirming or denying my points(or writing their own) and sorting out the things that aren't clear, would probably need Evil allowing us to change several things in the rules thread.
 

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2. PRIORITY - "SAVING & INVESTIGATING" (& more)

Bomb Diffusing Townie

3. PRIORITY - "KILLING & RECRUITING"

Bomb Diffuser
Does this mean that the mafia Defuser is Priority 3 both when killing and defusing, or did you simply forget to list his defusing ability in Priority 2?

And unless I greatly misunderstood his role and he's actually spreading bombs around instead of rendering them inoffensive, shouldn't it be "Defuser" instead of "Diffuser"? :p

No I would not allow those, since it goes against the whole purpose of having a pad and discussing things. A traitor within the group has to convince others with words on what to do instead of making a sneaky PM.
So I assume it would be left up to the host to monitor the mafia pad in order to decide when this was done with sneaky intent and, in case, confront the sender about it (for instance, to make sure it wasn't an honest mistake)?

2. No. Imagine the Paranoid Spy to be the same as the normal Spy, except that when he'd usually get back his result the target of his target gets randomized to any player in the game.
Any player in the game including the Paranoid Spy himself, right? And could the Paranoid Spy's target himself be the result (that way, if he spied on Player A, he would find out that Player A was targeting Player A himself, which... I don't think is possible and would make the Paranoid Spy deduce that he's paranoid)?

Now that I think about it, are actions like a Lover's suicide considered to be night actions one performs on himself?

6. Imagine him like a regular doctor, except that his action doesn't keep anyone safe. So he does make a night action, they would die to PGO and Spy would detect it, Mortician would detect it too.
What action would the Mortician detect it as? The same as a regular Doctor protection (so, for example: "N2 - target was protected")?

7. Strongman would kill the bodyguard instead of the target. Bodyguard redirects the kill onto himself.
What if the player the Bodyguard is protecting gets attacked more than once in the same night? Would the Bodyguard redirect only as many kills as it takes to kill him, all of them, or only the first one?

For example, the Bodyguard protects a Det. The Det is targeted by an Unskilled Mafia, a Regular Mafia and a Serial Killer, and the priority coin flips result in the same order (UM is first, RM is second, SK is third). Which one of the following scenarios would happen?

- The Unskilled Mafia's kill is redirected to the Bodyguard, the other two are not. The Det dies (twice), the Bodyguard has a 50% chance to stay alive.
- The UM's kill is redirected to the Bodyguard, and the UM fails the coin flip to kill him. Thus the RM's kill is redirected too, and the Bodyguard dies; this means the SK's kill reaches the Det and he dies too.
- All three kills are redirected to the Bodyguard. He dies, the Det lives.

I think Martyr should also protect the marked player from all other daytime deaths, such as Prosecutor, Vigilante, Assassin etc.
How would that work? If the Prosecutor's target is mafia, he's revealed but the Martyr dies? And what about a Martyr protecting the "shooter", so targeting the Prosecutor or Badass Cowboy themselves? That would make for a cool single-use combo, especially with the Prosecutor.

14. Yes. The redirect works like the paranoid spy, the target is completely randomed from the list and could hit any player. That includes the Bar Keeper himself or even his target. But whether a killer killing himself, doc protecting himself, det investigating himself etc. should work this way is questionable. Self-targeting isn't allowed generally, but when redirected? Should work imo.
That sounds hilarious. I'm completely in favour of the idea.

18. Investigator only works on players who die as "???" due to Janitor kills. If killed by Janitor, he would find out the "Mafia Member" role for both millers, same as when Janitor is killed and all his victim's roles are revealed.

If that's not the way this works, then it's likely with it being priority 3 and the rest being as usual.
The way I first understood it, the curse would be unavoidable as a Lover's suicide, but Priority 3 so that it allows the unlucky target to act before his inevitable death.

21. As the role is currently written, both sane and insane would copy the 3rd party roles. Unsure whether that needs to be changed. Would be quite a funny situation for the apprentice to explain to the town what role he found with his target, with them changing their win-conditions and all.
Makes more sense to me if only the Insane Apprentice can learn from Third Parties, they're cold-blooded killers too, after all. Except maybe for the Mentee (and maybe the Mentor too), which could make the IA a Threesome Candidate of sorts for the Mentor/Mentee?

25. This one was never discussed, and I'm not sure which option is the best. He either has to lock right away, having him vote without locking but not allowing switching or having him vote but he can still switch and do whatever.
I'm for using the 2nd one, with him not having to lock but having to keep his vote on that player, but perhaps another one is better and less complicated.
The way I see it, it's about whom does the responsibility to make the vote not seem suspicious go to. Option 1 would mean the Politician has to be careful, for instance, not to force a player to votelock for someone while he was in the middle of a discussion to lynch someone else, option 3 would mean the Politician's vote-corruption would have to be used a bit more carefully in order to be useful, while option 2 basically drops the responsibility onto the Politician's target, making the role a lot more noob-friendly.

27. See 25. If going with the 1st or 3rd option, then he can still vote whatever. If going with 2nd option, he still can't switch off.
And what about the Politician himself? If the initially targeted player were able to change, could the Politician choose another player whose vote to corrupt thanks to the exceptional circumstance of the time extension?

29. Was confused by the role description at one point and talked with Evil about it before. And no, mafia doesn't know there's a traitor in the game.
As an additional question, is the Traitor informed if his mafia acquires members like a Sleeper or an Insane Apprentice? If so, when?

35. Of course. We even had gnut kill his mafia teammate with his assassin power once. Best and strongest role in the game.
:blink

41. Mafia Pirate can kill instead of stealing, but once he steals a role he isn't a mafia pirate anymore, so he can only do what his new role allows him to.
Would his role still show as "Mafia Pirate" if he died after stealing a role? And "Pirate" for a townie one?

42. I said it before, it makes the most sense to give both mafia the same usual win condition, and I also understand the role description that way. Once mafia has the same number of members as the other players, they win.
So I assume the game would end in a tie if all townies died but the two mafias had the same number of members remaining?

43. From you saying "even", this seems to be a much bigger problem than I thought. Hardy and Farf made that mistake once before where the description confused them, this definitely needs to be slightly reworded. Look at the Mentor role again, it says "the member dies", meaning the mafia member.
When Mentor targets a mafia/non-townie he kills that person, he never dies from using his ability like a mason recruiter. So he either recruits a townie or kills a non-townie.


Crap, you're right.

46. I understood it as him not knowing what his presents are nor being able to pick which one is sent out. I could be wrong, but it makes the most sense this way, since the hosts determine the present order at the start and Santa would then have to be given a randomized roles. And him knowing what his presents are is completely pointless since he doesn't know which ones he already gave away and what he has left. No strategical value for Santa to know his presents unless I'm overlooking something. Maybe another one to ask Evil about. Or James, he probably made this one too.
I guess there would be some strategical value for Santa, even if he'd have to rely on luck. If his "gift" is a kill for the unlucky target, for example, it could make sense for Santa to avoid targeting a Doctor or try to kill someone who's close to figuring him out (or if among the presents there's a one-time killing role, he could avoid giving it to someone who wants him dead).

55. Had that one too in one of my games. I allowed the lover to make a final action. I'd say that's better than outright killing him. He gets to help his team one last time.
Would his death be automatically placed at the bottom of the priority list, so that he would be able to kill without having to win a coin flip?

60. As the role description says, one has to be mafia and the other has to be town. But we had hosts like Ustegius and Panda ignore that and go with dual town/dual mafia lovers before, so we could change the role description to reflect on that possibility for more interesting ways to use lovers to balance a certain weird game. In theory there could even be more pairs of lovers than just one...
Or a game where all players are paired into Lover couples. This needs to happen! :arf :sexyarf


Thanks for all the answers, Gry (and @Hardy). When in doubt, I'll make sure to rely on your guidelines until the others share their opinions as well. If anything else comes up, I'll ask here again. :)
 

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@GrySun in no way do I have the time right now to give input on all of the points, but doesn't the Spy only recieve intel on who they targeted? Imo this role should be expanded upon or a new role should be created that lets the player know who targeted them while they are alive. Not just dead players, as the Mortician does.

As for the spy not getting results if his target was blocked, I don't see why they would need any help with that. It's up to them to discern what may have happened to their target.
 

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Does this mean that the mafia Defuser is Priority 3 both when killing and defusing, or did you simply forget to list his defusing ability in Priority 2?

And unless I greatly misunderstood his role and he's actually spreading bombs around instead of rendering them inoffensive, shouldn't it be "Defuser" instead of "Diffuser"? :p
No I just forgot it. But if you didn't notice anything else left out then adding that should make it complete.

Something always bothered me about the name, it's funny that nobody noticed the typo ever since it was written. And yes, defuser is correct and it should be changed to that.

Also now that I read it again, I think Mafia Pirate can't kill even before stealing a role if I read the description correctly. "The Mafia Pirate does not have the ability to kill at night like a normal Mafia member, only if the stolen ability allows that."
So unless we change it, you can remove the mafia pirate being able to kill from the priority list.

So I assume it would be left up to the host to monitor the mafia pad in order to decide when this was done with sneaky intent and, in case, confront the sender about it (for instance, to make sure it wasn't an honest mistake)?
Yeah probably. Still, afaik these things never really happened so you can also just accept the first PM a mafia member sends you if you have no time or will to read through a pad. If it happened I'd PM back and tell the guy not to go against what was discussed. But it all depends on the situation.

Any player in the game including the Paranoid Spy himself, right? And could the Paranoid Spy's target himself be the result (that way, if he spied on Player A, he would find out that Player A was targeting Player A himself, which... I don't think is possible and would make the Paranoid Spy deduce that he's paranoid)?

Now that I think about it, are actions like a Lover's suicide considered to be night actions one performs on himself?
Yes including him as well. And yes he could find out by seeing the player target himself, but then again paranoid spy confirms his sanity rather quickly and easily. The target could've also been redirected so perhaps even that isn't enough of a confirmation.

No, lover death is just an unavoidable death as it currently stands. He doesn't target himself. But self-targeting can also sometimes be a thing in certain special game rules(as it was with the seals in the fire emblem game). We could change it to make it possible for the doc to extend his life for another phase, but not sure if that's what lovers need. Perhaps informing the lovers in their PM that a threesome exists would be more helpful.

What action would the Mortician detect it as? The same as a regular Doctor protection (so, for example: "N2 - target was protected")?
As if he was a doc, he would know he was protected that night.

What if the player the Bodyguard is protecting gets attacked more than once in the same night? Would the Bodyguard redirect only as many kills as it takes to kill him, all of them, or only the first one?

For example, the Bodyguard protects a Det. The Det is targeted by an Unskilled Mafia, a Regular Mafia and a Serial Killer, and the priority coin flips result in the same order (UM is first, RM is second, SK is third). Which one of the following scenarios would happen?

- The Unskilled Mafia's kill is redirected to the Bodyguard, the other two are not. The Det dies (twice), the Bodyguard has a 50% chance to stay alive.
- The UM's kill is redirected to the Bodyguard, and the UM fails the coin flip to kill him. Thus the RM's kill is redirected too, and the Bodyguard dies; this means the SK's kill reaches the Det and he dies too.
- All three kills are redirected to the Bodyguard. He dies, the Det lives.
I think it's as many until Bodyguard dies, so the 2nd one in your example happens. Would be cool if Bodyguard completely redirected every single kill, so maybe it should be changed to that.

How would that work? If the Prosecutor's target is mafia, he's revealed but the Martyr dies? And what about a Martyr protecting the "shooter", so targeting the Prosecutor or Badass Cowboy themselves? That would make for a cool single-use combo, especially with the Prosecutor.
Prosecutor marks another player openly at day. At the end of the day phase, the marked player dies if he isn't a pro-town role, but if he is a pro-town role then Prosecutor dies instead. If Prosecutor is assassinated/daykilled before the day ends the mark on the selected player disappears and he doesn't get checked that way at the end of the day.
So with Martyr it would work like this: The Martyr protects the marked player(which is a totally bad play). If the marked player is a townie, Prosecutor dies as normal, if he isn't a townie then the Martyr dies. The correct and better play I imagined was Martyr protecting the Prosecutor. If his marked player is a townie then the Martyr dies instead of the Prosecutor and town has 2 confirmed townies.

So yes, Martyr protecting Prosecutor/Badass Cowboy could be a nice synergy we should add.

The way I first understood it, the curse would be unavoidable as a Lover's suicide, but Priority 3 so that it allows the unlucky target to act before his inevitable death.
That makes sense too, so it really depends on how we decide to have it work, or ask Evil on how the role worked in the past(if Witch ever even died to lynching, not sure). I'm fine with either, but yours could let a doc/prostitute still do something last day so we should perhaps make it as you said, unavoidable but as priority 3.

Makes more sense to me if only the Insane Apprentice can learn from Third Parties, they're cold-blooded killers too, after all. Except maybe for the Mentee (and maybe the Mentor too), which could make the IA a Threesome Candidate of sorts for the Mentor/Mentee?
Yeah and that should be changed in the Apprentice description so only the Insane one can do it. As a Mentor he would become a new group by himself actually, only as a Mentee he should join the other 2.

The way I see it, it's about whom does the responsibility to make the vote not seem suspicious go to. Option 1 would mean the Politician has to be careful, for instance, not to force a player to votelock for someone while he was in the middle of a discussion to lynch someone else, option 3 would mean the Politician's vote-corruption would have to be used a bit more carefully in order to be useful, while option 2 basically drops the responsibility onto the Politician's target, making the role a lot more noob-friendly.
All options put the Politician's target into a bad spot, just that option 1 is the most cruel for the target. Imo it should be with either 2 or 3. With 2 the target wouldn't be completely screwed while keeping the Politician with a lot of options for people to use his role on, while with 3 the Politician could only use it on people who already voted once to force a switch or else his power usage is pretty useless.

And what about the Politician himself? If the initially targeted player were able to change, could the Politician choose another player whose vote to corrupt thanks to the exceptional circumstance of the time extension?
No, it's a once-a-day role. An extension to a day phase only lets people vote anew.

As an additional question, is the Traitor informed if his mafia acquires members like a Sleeper or an Insane Apprentice? If so, when?
No he isn't. Traitor's purpose and style of playing is to get the mafias to target him while still acting normally as a townie to others. For that he knows the full mafia team, letting him know when someone else is recruited isn't necessary.

Using Traitor in a game with 2 mafias could be done by having 2 traitors and each one knowing the full team for the one he can be recruited by.

iirc his mafia friend wanted him lynched hard, so gnut protected himself with the Assassin role. That kept him alive and around until the end of the game I think. The guy was apparently pretty mad about this.

Would his role still show as "Mafia Pirate" if he died after stealing a role? And "Pirate" for a townie one?
The role description only states that their target's role changes to Townie, but not that their own role changes. So as of now they should both die as Pirate and Mafia Pirate.

So I assume the game would end in a tie if all townies died but the two mafias had the same number of members remaining?
The chance for that happening is almost nonexistant I think. It doesn't really matter if the game ends as a draw or continues, since the game becomes rather silly at that point. If there's 4 players left, 2 in each mafia, then they will all just lock on the same person, day will end in 2 lynches, and night depends on who wins a cointoss. So you could end the game already or decide the winner with a cointoss. Only if one of them has penalty votes or there's a gambler/assassin it would even matter so idk.

I guess there would be some strategical value for Santa, even if he'd have to rely on luck. If his "gift" is a kill for the unlucky target, for example, it could make sense for Santa to avoid targeting a Doctor or try to kill someone who's close to figuring him out (or if among the presents there's a one-time killing role, he could avoid giving it to someone who wants him dead).
Still doesn't seem very significant.. But I guess it does add a little bit of extra fun for Santa? Could be added maybe. Best ask hardy and evil how they did it in their game, in mine Zasz didn't get the list of presents(tho he also died day 1 so ehh...)

Would his death be automatically placed at the bottom of the priority list, so that he would be able to kill without having to win a coin flip?
Not sure I understand. His kill would still be priority 3, and any other role still of the original priority. He'd just die at the end of the night and before day starts.

Thanks for all the answers, Gry (and @Hardy). When in doubt, I'll make sure to rely on your guidelines until the others share their opinions as well. If anything else comes up, I'll ask here again. :)
What did hardy say? Were our answers somewhat the same at least?

As for rewriting the rules, how do you recommend to do that? Keep the same format as it is right now, but add/rewrite text where needed or change layouts and listings as well?
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
@GrySun in no way do I have the time right now to give input on all of the points, but doesn't the Spy only recieve intel on who they targeted? Imo this role should be expanded upon or a new role should be created that lets the player know who targeted them while they are alive. Not just dead players, as the Mortician does.

As for the spy not getting results if his target was blocked, I don't see why they would need any help with that. It's up to them to discern what may have happened to their target.
Spy only knows who his target targeted. That itself is fine and strong enough without needing changes, since you can easily discover who said the truth/who lied, and even target passive claimers and watch as they actually did things at night. What you're saying could be a new role but unrelated to the Spy.

Yes they should deal with it themself, but that's not the issue. The hosts last game would've let the Spy still get the info even if his target was blocked, while I wouldn't in my games, so whether it happens or not should be decided for future games to have some consistency.
 

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Also now that I read it again, I think Mafia Pirate can't kill even before stealing a role if I read the description correctly. "The Mafia Pirate does not have the ability to kill at night like a normal Mafia member, only if the stolen ability allows that."
So unless we change it, you can remove the mafia pirate being able to kill from the priority list.
Either he can always kill, or he can never kill unless the stolen ability allows it, in my opinion. It doesn't really make sense to me that he would completely unlearn how to kill, so I'd at least give him a 50% chance like the Unskilled Mafia (either from the start, or his chance to mafia-kill goes from 100% to 50% after he steals a role).

I like the idea of making the Mafia Pirate a support role of sorts for a mafia team, but preventing him from being able to kill at night like a normal mafia could make his role very risky. If he targeted (or got redirected to) a useless role, he would become a useless member. So much so that he wouldn't even be able to kill by himself if he remained the last member of his team, like I think happened in the JoJo game.


Prosecutor marks another player openly at day. At the end of the day phase, the marked player dies if he isn't a pro-town role, but if he is a pro-town role then Prosecutor dies instead. If Prosecutor is assassinated/daykilled before the day ends the mark on the selected player disappears and he doesn't get checked that way at the end of the day.
So with Martyr it would work like this: The Martyr protects the marked player(which is a totally bad play). If the marked player is a townie, Prosecutor dies as normal, if he isn't a townie then the Martyr dies. The correct and better play I imagined was Martyr protecting the Prosecutor. If his marked player is a townie then the Martyr dies instead of the Prosecutor and town has 2 confirmed townies.

So yes, Martyr protecting Prosecutor/Badass Cowboy could be a nice synergy we should add.
Agreed. To be honest, the Martyr doesn't look like a role that can do much on his own, since he doesn't know anything more than the next regular townie. It seems to me that he'd have to rely almost exclusively on hunches or trusting people that the majority doesn't trust, but even then it would mostly only delay things for a day in the hope that the night actions change something, with a good chance of protecting a cunning mafia member. So giving the Martyr an additional contextual usefulness could be nice.


All options put the Politician's target into a bad spot, just that option 1 is the most cruel for the target. Imo it should be with either 2 or 3. With 2 the target wouldn't be completely screwed while keeping the Politician with a lot of options for people to use his role on, while with 3 the Politician could only use it on people who already voted once to force a switch or else his power usage is pretty useless.
Option 3 could allow people who were previously targeted to protect themselves from another vote-corruption by only votelocking, which I guess could be interesting but rare. All in all, I prefer option 1 or 2.


No he isn't. Traitor's purpose and style of playing is to get the mafias to target him while still acting normally as a townie to others. For that he knows the full mafia team, letting him know when someone else is recruited isn't necessary.

Using Traitor in a game with 2 mafias could be done by having 2 traitors and each one knowing the full team for the one he can be recruited by.
Just to be sure, how exactly does the mafia recruit a Traitor?


iirc his mafia friend wanted him lynched hard, so gnut protected himself with the Assassin role. That kept him alive and around until the end of the game I think. The guy was apparently pretty mad about this.
:lmao Assassin best role indeed.


Not sure I understand. His kill would still be priority 3, and any other role still of the original priority. He'd just die at the end of the night and before day starts.
Yeah, I meant that the suicide would be the last thing that happened instead of being treated as a priority 3 kill against the Lover himself. So that if the Lover wants to kill someone before he dies, he doesn't have to win a coin toss against his suicide to be able to.


What did hardy say? Were our answers somewhat the same at least?
Ah, no, I just included him because you mentioned having discussed some of the questions with him. He's welcome to, though. No pressure or anything :whistle


As for rewriting the rules, how do you recommend to do that? Keep the same format as it is right now, but add/rewrite text where needed or change layouts and listings as well?
The same format would work, in my opinion, not sure we'd need to change that. Some text could be added to make the role descriptions more complete, but I'd keep them as brief as possible instead of having a couple paragraphs for each and confusing noobs with walls of text.

Maybe we could add a list of questions and answers like the one we're discussing right now in a separate FAQ area or something like that, so that anyone could quickly check if an interaction works as they thought or learn about a few more possibilities their role offers?
 

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Either he can always kill, or he can never kill unless the stolen ability allows it, in my opinion. It doesn't really make sense to me that he would completely unlearn how to kill, so I'd at least give him a 50% chance like the Unskilled Mafia (either from the start, or his chance to mafia-kill goes from 100% to 50% after he steals a role).

I like the idea of making the Mafia Pirate a support role of sorts for a mafia team, but preventing him from being able to kill at night like a normal mafia could make his role very risky. If he targeted (or got redirected to) a useless role, he would become a useless member. So much so that he wouldn't even be able to kill by himself if he remained the last member of his team, like I think happened in the JoJo game.
Yeah Kato was screwed at the end, though as the role is written pirate can never do a kill at night unless he steals a role that can do it. It's not a really high tier role, but even without the kill it has a lot of potential and use for the mafia.

Agreed. To be honest, the Martyr doesn't look like a role that can do much on his own, since he doesn't know anything more than the next regular townie. It seems to me that he'd have to rely almost exclusively on hunches or trusting people that the majority doesn't trust, but even then it would mostly only delay things for a day in the hope that the night actions change something, with a good chance of protecting a cunning mafia member. So giving the Martyr an additional contextual usefulness could be nice.
The lynch protection can be useful but very situational, so adding more daytime protection for him would be ideal.

Option 3 could allow people who were previously targeted to protect themselves from another vote-corruption by only votelocking, which I guess could be interesting but rare. All in all, I prefer option 1 or 2.
Yeah I think I'd go with 2. If another politician targets the player while he still hasn't locked it, it overrides the previous one so it works best in a game with multiple politicians/gamblers while also giving them more targets other than people who voted once.

Just to be sure, how exactly does the mafia recruit a Traitor?
Need to target him with a killing action. Escort blocking for example doesn't count. Mafia poisoning and other mafia kills recruit him. While it never happened, technically assassin could recruit him at day too.

Yeah, I meant that the suicide would be the last thing that happened instead of being treated as a priority 3 kill against the Lover himself. So that if the Lover wants to kill someone before he dies, he doesn't have to win a coin toss against his suicide to be able to.
Ah that's what you mean. Yes, the suicide happens at the end, he doesn't need to win 50% chance to do his role if he is priority 3.

The same format would work, in my opinion, not sure we'd need to change that. Some text could be added to make the role descriptions more complete, but I'd keep them as brief as possible instead of having a couple paragraphs for each and confusing noobs with walls of text.

Maybe we could add a list of questions and answers like the one we're discussing right now in a separate FAQ area or something like that, so that anyone could quickly check if an interaction works as they thought or learn about a few more possibilities their role offers?
Yeah that was my main concern, overloading it with too much info and interactions could be too confusing and make the rules and roles unreadable. Perhaps a simple rewrite of a few whose role is confusing by quickly reading it, and have the rest included in an extra spoiler tag, or a link to this convo.
 

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Yeah that was my main concern, overloading it with too much info and interactions could be too confusing and make the rules and roles unreadable. Perhaps a simple rewrite of a few whose role is confusing by quickly reading it, and have the rest included in an extra spoiler tag, or a link to this convo.
If the upcoming game starts before the rules have been updated with a general consensus, I was thinking of including a link to the start of this conversation and using your suggestions as our basis for the interpretation of the most ambiguous rules. With the hope that it will minimize any misunderstandings and screw-ups due to lack of experience.


Need to target him with a killing action. Escort blocking for example doesn't count. Mafia poisoning and other mafia kills recruit him. While it never happened, technically assassin could recruit him at day too.
So the mafia doesn't know the traitor exists and they have to target him with a kill (like the Sleeper)? Another case where the description leaves a lot to the interpretation, as it says: "The Mafia can choose at any time in the game to recruit their Traitor". -_-;

A question about the Diffuser Defuser: how does his ability work? I assume he can choose to use it on anyone, but does the ability's single use get consumed if the Defuser targets someone who isn't a Bomb? And in that case, is he still performing a night action targeting someone, like for example the Naive Doctor does (meaning he dies if he targets a PGO, the Mortician detects his action as "X defused Y" and so on)?
 

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If the upcoming game starts before the rules have been updated with a general consensus, I was thinking of including a link to the start of this conversation and using your suggestions as our basis for the interpretation of the most ambiguous rules. With the hope that it will minimize any misunderstandings and screw-ups due to lack of experience.
Sure. In case of any new things arising while you're hosting your game, if it's something never discussed before or something with no consensus on it, you can of course use your own judgement in how you handle it. I doubt anyone will mind unless it's an obvious mistake.

So the mafia doesn't know the traitor exists and they have to target him with a kill (like the Sleeper)? Another case where the description leaves a lot to the interpretation, as it says: "The Mafia can choose at any time in the game to recruit their Traitor". -_-;

A question about the Diffuser Defuser: how does his ability work? I assume he can choose to use it on anyone, but does the ability's single use get consumed if the Defuser targets someone who isn't a Bomb? And in that case, is he still performing a night action targeting someone, like for example the Naive Doctor does (meaning he dies if he targets a PGO, the Mortician detects his action as "X defused Y" and so on)?
Yeah the writing is bad, but they need to target him for a kill yes.

As for bomb defuser, as the rules are written right now, it being consumed on 1 use whether you target a bomb or not are both plausible.

But I'm very sure it disappears if you target a non-bomb. It's a one-time use, if the player uses it randomly he has no way of knowing if his target really was the bomb(and the host can't tell him such stuff) so he would keep annoyingly sending PMs every night targeting someone. That's not a good thing. So one-time use roles disappear in one use, regardless if hitting the right target or not, if only due to an easier way of handling it.

That 1 use, whether hitting a bomb, he is making a valid targeting which gets spotted by Spy and other roles. No, Mortician wouldn't know that by targeting the defuser's corpse. He'd have to target the PGO once he's dead, then he would find "PGO was defused on night y". That said, mortician can be ridiculously strong if he survives longer with such info to confirm/deny people's action-claims.
 
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I didn't because I read your answers and thought eh not bad @GrySun cheeky cunt
So, Panda, tell me: what's you opinion about this specific rule?

Just to be sure, how exactly does the mafia recruit a Traitor?
Need to target him with a killing action. Escort blocking for example doesn't count. Mafia poisoning and other mafia kills recruit him. While it never happened, technically assassin could recruit him at day too.

:nah
 

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I didn't because I read your answers and thought eh not bad @GrySun cheeky cunt
Ah so you noticed my sly way of notifying you :rolleyes: I went through some posts and saw that you said that a month ago :XD
You could still add your thoughts on some parts, some of my answers I wasn't fully sure of either.
 

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@GrySun sent me a list of description modifications, that will be added soon. I'm confident that those will settle a lot of undisputed arguments in one or the other direction.

The purpose is clearer guidance for players and hosts. We hope to cover the most important game mechanics in their new functions of the by now humongous roles pool.

There should be reviewing period where everyone can mark their comments on the marked with update noted roles. Perhaps also check that some other essential function/combination is addressed properly in that regard.
 

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Can't the compulsory vote be done away with?
 

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when u were halfway through answering everything, u refresh the page and its all gone :feelsbadman
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
@GrySun sent me a list of description modifications, that will be added soon. I'm confident that those will settle a lot of undisputed arguments in one or the other direction.

The purpose is clearer guidance for players and hosts. We hope to cover the most important game mechanics in their new functions of the by now humongous roles pool.

There should be reviewing period where everyone can mark their comments on the marked with update noted roles. Perhaps also check that some other essential function/combination is addressed properly in that regard.
Can you send this to me too? And what exactly is being chased, role descriptions or like the entire OP?
 

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I think the biggest factor of this issue until now is that as the role list got larger and larger, appropriate revisions and adjustments of older roles weren't performed to accommodate the new ones. I'll be sure to take a look at the proposed revisions. Will you make it a Web Document or similar platform?
 

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Since when is this a democracy :cheez
 

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petit bourg gets to beat down a couple more revolutions before their opinions are considered
 
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