Discussion God and the idea of evil

[sk.nite]

Well, I thought I'd put an actual discussion thread in the discussion board. So what do you think about the god that Miura depicts in his work? The idea that god is made by mankind and not the other way around is pretty much what I've always belived and it's described in a perfect way imo.

Since this god is suposedly evil, and the ones who created this god are humans, then these humans are naturally evil too. Maybe saying that mankind is evil by nature would be a simplification of his message. I'd like to know what are your ideas about this.

Pd: this first post was originally supposed to be a lot longer, but I can't sort all my thoughts right now. I'll do it eventually, if there's interest.

[tsuki]Tsugumi Ohba[/tsuki]

WTF is that supposed to mean? ~ sk.nite

 

[crazy_horse1989]

yeah, exactly my thoughts... i had the same perception on God before reading Berserk, and i strongly agree with Miura`s point of view...

i agree with this and maybe "karma" would be more appropriate to believe in to a certain degree than God...

 

[Franckie]

Miura does seem to satire religion in his work, especially that of major religions such as Christianity. But I don't think that "God", or the "Idea of Evil", is actually evil per se. The reason God was born is because humanity desired reasons for misery, suffering, pointless death, etc. Thus, God created things such as Godhand in order to carry out its mission of weaving the destiny of every man, woman, and child. Indeed, God is cruel, wicked, etc., yet at the same time, it gives mankind hope, closure, etc. So, God is an omnipotent deity that brings both "evil" and "good".

Personally, the idea that Griffith is "Jesus Christ" has occurred to me before. I've also envisioned Guts as the "Satan" since he opposes God/Griffith/Godhand/etc. and everything they stand for. Guts, to a limited extent, can oppose casuality. He survived the Eclipse and has obtained the strength to cut down even the strongest "Apostles" (this word carries a holy connotation). Furthermore, he's forged a sword which holds the potential to kill even Godhand itself. Also, there's symbolic representation by having Guts be the "Dark Swordsman" while Griffith is the "Hawk of Light". Although Guts does questionable things on occasion, he is honorable and cares a great deal about his comrades. Griffith, however, can only seem to do virtuous things, yet he sees his comrades as nothing more than peons.

A lot of works have religion as a major theme, and Berserk is included on that list.

 

[crazy_horse1989]

well, that`s why Berserk is a great manga after all... nothing is what it seems like at first... what is good, what is evil? an omnipresent state of insecure and fear...

well, after all, Miura is right to satire religion... there are no gods, there are no spiritual fathers of humanity, just a rotten civilization... and i somewhat disagree with your point of view on The Idea Of Evil... well, it gives mankind hope, closure and such, but aren`t those given to them right before something really bad happens?

 

[sk.nite]

Replies! Yay! *Yaoi fangirl screams*

I always seem to enter this thread when my brain is most fucked up...so my great dissertation'll have to wait a little more...in the meanwhile I'm finishing the second movie's subtitles

 

[Ramen4ever]

I think it's important that we only look at facts when analyzing the Idea of Evil.
Here's a text, credit to Sk.net, of what we do know of the Idea of Evil. I will try to post only the relevant info.. I took out Griffith's thoughts.

I am
The Idea
The desired God
The Idea of Evil
An ocean of feelings all humans have deep in their souls
A common consciousness that transcends individuality
Their collective consciousness
Its dark side is this swelling ocean
I was born from these swells
As the ego of this world
This world itself is I
The darkness that dwells in every human heart
The Idea of Evil
This is God
This is just the surface of multiple layers of a whole consciousness
But you know
You know that this place is terribly human
Violence and loneliness
This place is filled with all kinds of blurred negative feelings
It is truly the will that defines human nature
Humans
Desired reasons
Reasons for pain
Reasons for sadness
Reasons for life
Reasons for death
Reason why their lives were filled with suffering
Reasons why their deaths were absurd
They wanted reasons for the destiny that kept transcending their knowledge
And I produce those
As it is what I've been brought into existence for
I control fate
Obeying the essence of humankind
I weave every man's destiny
It was established that you would be here since a distant past
By influencing the lower levels of human consciousness
And merging blood with blood
I created the lineage that would give birth to the man you are
To pave the way for the times you would be born in
I manipulated History
And created an appropriate context for you
All the encounters you have had so far
Were all a part of the destiny that led you here as well

First things first, bringing Christianity into this is more or less pointless as the concept of the Idea of Evil is not really based around that particular religion.
The Idea of Evil is, as far as we know, the only God in the Berserk universe. However it is not a creator God. It is a God that was born from the collective dark feelings of Humanity. What this implies is that evil is a part of every human being. Imo that does not necessarily mean that human's are evil, only that humans have a conflicting duality. After all, if human's were evil by nature then the concept of sacrificing would be COMPLETELY pointless. Apostles wouldn't be able to exist as the process requires that they fill themselves with evil and rid themselves of their humanity. For that to happen you need some humanity to get rid of first.

Also, the Idea of Evil does not give mankind "hope or closure", it gives reason. Reason for suffering, death, life, pain and sadness. The Idea of Evil gives reason by weaving every man's destiny and controlling fate.

That's all for now.

 

[absolute Zero]

yep. wounder if it's real.Anyways I like how the whole idea of evil fitted into the story and stuff.it was really cool how something like that can exsist. Iwounder if it welcome in to play again.

 

[Desperado]

Seeing how Miura satirized religion, don't you think japanese religions like Shinto (to some extend represented by Schierke and Flora) get away pretty well?

 

[esdawg]

I do not think the Idea of Evil / God actually is Evil in itself. With the Idea of Evil/God I feel like the author wanted to hit on the idea of how humans create religion. In this case by ironically stating that human nature and its spirit to actually loop back and create a real God.

Let's examine how the God basically came to exist through human's desire to find a reason for everything. We'll start with some initial food for thought.

- Think about crossing the street tomorrow; a driver who decides to answer their text while driving, loses focus, hits and kills you in a crash. -

That sounds random and absurd, but that does happen. And in Berserk stuff like this forced a God into existence because everyone thinks "Why me, why did this have to happen?" So the Idea fulfills that role by orchestrating and manipulating events to provide direction for humanity. Because despite what we may think, total independence actually comes across as terrifying since you have to meander aimlessly through life finding some purpose for your situation. The Idea provides the gestalt human race's consciousness with focus.

Seeing how Miura satirized religion, don't you think japanese religions like Shinto (to some extend represented by Schierke and Flora) get away pretty well?

While the criticism's nothing new these days it still hits home for a lot of Eastern countries. The singular dogmatic nature of Christianity versus the natural/spiritual oriented beliefs like Shintoism and Buddhism. Of course Shintoism also paved the way for the absurdity that became Emperor Hirohito's reign (WW2) but who knows, maybe the fairy island will slap that detail upside the head. I wouldn't find it surprising that the author simply likes the dark gothic source material he hits on. If you take a look at some of Western (The first editions of Warhammer Fantasy) and Asian art styles around his time and right before it (Check out studio Ghibli's earlier works and the 1977 Hobbit movie) you'll see where his style comes from.

 

[Aazholh]

I don't understand why the IoE is the only "god" pulling the strings. If I'm getting this right. In the beginning there was no God or any supernatural (astral) entities at all. At some point, the collective consciousness of mankind created the astral creatures, the ancient gods, and the IoE as well. If mankind conjured up creatures such as fairies, who's to say that mankind didn't bring their idea of God into existence too? Look at the Seagod, people brought that bloated octopus into existence? What about the nose creature? Some kid dreamed that creature up.

What about souls? Did man have souls to begin with or did their fear of dying create the astral world in order to have an afterlife?