Predictions Dowon's Dilemma: V's Child & Zahard's Killer

[somnolent]

Edited for clarity. Plus two theories.

I re-read the Wall arc, because Dowon didn't make sense to me. Now she makes sense. Dowon was trying to stop a costly war waged by Zahard's Killer and waiting for V's Child to achieve an unknown objective. Now she knows they're one in the same, she's not sure what to do.

I asked a few questions (see below) then got bored and tried to answer them.

Spoiler: Why Dowon is confused, then conflicted.

Dowon wanted to be woken when V's Child returned to the Tower.
"Remember what our Master said before? [..] .Someday that great man's child might return to the Tower [...] If that time ever comes [...] could you wake me up then?"

We know Khane loses her memory when this happens. So it was clearly important to Dowon.

Dowon heard part of Arlene's Prophecy from "the Boss" and he told her she'd meet Zahard's Killer on the day she awoke.
"He started telling me about a boy who would start a war in the future I wake up in." If she kills the boy, she stops the war.

Dowon thought V's Child and Zahard's Killer were two separate people.
"Does that mean...? No, it can't be. The person I've been waiting for is the person who's going to bring chaos and war to the Tower...?"

Dowon wasn't woken up as planned.
Khane chooses to revive Dowon when the Chairman of the Wall pushes her too far and with some prodding from Kallavan.

...and she knows that.
Once unsealed, Dowon inherits Khane's memories, so she's aware of the situation. As far she knows, V's Child has not returned to the Tower yet.

She knows the Tower is at war. (+1 Credibility Point to the Boss)
White confirms to Dowon that the Tower is still far from peaceful, as the Boss said it would be.

She begins looking for Zahard's Killer and sees Baam.
"The Thorn that'll Slit the King's Throat. A lot of people are going to die because of that boy."
I don't know how she knew Baam was the one she was looking for, but she does and she's right.

Dowon only hesitates when she realises Zahard's Killer is V's Child.
It's when Yool (Snake-guy) intervenes and delivers the Captain's message: that Baam came from Outside the Tower, that she connects the two figures together.
"Does that mean...? No, it can't be. The person I've been waiting for is the person who's going to bring chaos and war to the Tower...?"
Yeah, I know I used this one twice.

The Questions that left me with.

1. If V's Child wasn't supposed to kill the King, what did Dowon think he supposed to do?

Short answer: Before Baam was killed by Zahard the first time, V had a plan for him. Below is my theory for what.

Spoiler: V's Original Plan for Baam and His Destiny

The prophecy FUG kept in the Age of Genesis (and the one Dowon knows) is: the Child returning to bring about V's vision for the Tower. It's what V wanted his son to do before Zahard cut that destiny short by killing him.

Dowon says "Remember what our Master said before? There are people who have escaped from the Tower since the Tower's been around. There are stories of a Great Man and Woman...and the story how FUG was created."
I always wondered where V was when Zahard murdered his son. I think he was looking for an exit to the Tower.

FUG seemed surprised Baam was as weak as he was when he arrived. Sending a untrained boy into the Tower can't have been the plan. Had they escaped together, they would've both mentored their son. V's Child would've returned to the Tower with his powers fully developed like Enryu and Urek.

As for what V actually wanted Baam to do?

Spoiler: My Best Guess

The Son of V & Arlene would've known the way in and the way out. Reassembling the key and challenging 135th Floor (and beyond) or showing the Tower-born the way out of the Tower would've both been possible. They could've climbed or left, as they pleased.

Zahard wants to rule the Tower and everything in it, but he can't pass the 135th Floor Test. If he can't, no one can. Leaving the Tower means rejecting his rule. Can't have that either. Hence why Arlene calls him the "The Greedy King."

V's Child would've offered what Zahard cannot. The freedom to leave and the power to advance. So Zahard killed him while he was still a baby.

This is a pretty modest guess all things considered. V could've planned to unite the Tower floors into a new world for all we know. Who knows what's possible at the top?

2. Did Dowon's FUG Master conceal that V's Child was supposed to kill Zahard? Or was that not the plan at the time?

If FUG simply lied or kept things from Dowon, both theories are dead. If what they told her was true, see the Spoilers above and below.

3. How has FUG changed since the Age of Genesis?

I think FUG was originally a lot more noble until they found out Zahard killed V's Child, that's when Luslec hit his "Absolute Darkness" phase.

Spoiler: Why and when FUG changed from hero to villain

V and Arlene fled after Zahard and the Ten Warrior's triumphed over them, but Arlene was already expecting. FUG were the disciples who stayed behind to continue the fight. They had high hopes for the unborn child, but they'd lost contact with V & Arlene. That's why they keep using "Great Man's Child," FUG didn't know if it was a boy or a girl.

In the Age of Genesis, FUG is waiting for V's Child to return.

Sometime after Dowon is sealed, FUG learns the Child was murdered by Zahard, Arlene went mad from grief and V gave into despair. That's when FUG shifts from resistance to terrorist organisation and Zahard's death becomes their reason for being.

Spoiler: The Timeline Adds Up

Arlene's Prophecy wasn't written until just before she left the Tower. It's in the last entry in her diary. "I have finally found a way to get out of this place," is the first line Garam reads to Baam before she gets to the prophecy.

It took Arlene a very long time to find an exit to the Tower, according to Garam (who's over 5000 according to the wiki).

Luslec and FUG are much older than Arlene's Prophecy. FUG has it's origins in V's War with Zahard, and Luslec goes back even further. He climbed the Tower with the Great Warriors.

There must have been a gap between FUG's founding and them finding out Zahard killed the Child. Possibly millennia. That would explain why FUG doesn't seem as obsessed with Zahard's death in Dowon's Time as it is now.

Arlene's Prophecy could've taken thousands of years to reach FUG. Arlene's Pocket can't have been widely known about or Zahard would've starting looking for it. Arlene remained alone after V's death, so who knows how long it was hidden away until someone picked it up.

I think the Boss had Arlene's Pocket in the Age of Genesis. Everything the Boss says: the child who starts the war, "massive changes" and "the Thorn who'll Slit the King's Throat" mirrors Arlene's Prophecy.

Enryu didn't deliver the Thorn until after Zahard went into hibernation. And we know Khel Hellam fought Zahard after Dowon was sealed. So, the Thorn hadn't arrived in Dowon's Time.

 

[King Dryst]

Dowon is caught between stopping a war and the fulfilment of an FUG prophecy, but not the one we know. If Baam dies, the prophecy can't be fulfilled. If he lives, the war continues. That's Dowon's Dilemma.

This is far beyond her ability to decide, regardless. Dowon's arms aren't long enough to box with God. Baam will do as he's meant to do whether her vacillating ass likes it or not.

Her real dilemma is whether she should board the train or get crushed beneath its path. Choo choo.

 

[Siya101]

I re-read Dowon's introduction and I think I've got a better understanding of her character, but now I have more questions.

In S3 Ep 38, Dowon tells Khane: "Remember what our Master said before? [..] .Someday that great man's child might return to the Tower [...] If that time ever comes [...] could you wake me up then?" Someone who left and returned to the Tower. So, Dowon was waiting for an Irregular.

In S3, Ep45, Dowon meets a Wangnan-lookalike who called himself "the Boss" who told her about "a boy that would spark a war" and that she'd encounter that boy when she woke up. Dowon wants to save the countless lives that will be lost in that war by killing what she calls the "Thorn that'll Slit the King's Throat." Let's go with Kingslayer, for short.

Dowon thought these were two separate people.

Khane chooses to revive Dowon when the Chairman of the Wall pushes her too far and with some prodding from Kallavan. Once unsealed, Dowon inherits Khane's memories, so she knew she hadn't been woken up as planned. As far as she knows, the Irregular has not returned yet.

White confirms to Dowon that the Tower is still at war, as the Boss said it would be. Then she sees Baam and knew he was the Kingslayer. So, she attacked him. It's only when Yool (Snake-guy) intervenes and delivers the Captain's message: that Baam came from Outside the Tower, that she connects the two figures together.

"Does that mean...? No, it can't be. The person I've been waiting for is the person who's going to bring chaos and war to the Tower...?"
It's like she learned the Messiah and the Anti-Christ are the same person.

All of this raised so many questions for me, but I'll stick to three:

1. Dowon was clearly anticipating the Irregular's return. If they weren't supposed to kill the King, what did she think V's Child was going to do?
2. Did Dowon's FUG Master conceal the Kingslaying part of the Irregular's destiny from Dowon? Or was that genuinely not part of FUG's plan at the time?
3. Has FUG changed its objectives since the Age of Genesis?

I'd like to hear what other people think is going on. I have a hunch, but there's not much to support it.

There are two things I'm confident about, though:

Dowon is caught between stopping a war and the fulfilment of an FUG prophecy, but not the one we know. If Baam dies, the prophecy can't be fulfilled. If he lives, the war continues. That's Dowon's Dilemma.

Lastly, I'm pretty sure the Boss owned Arlene's Pocket before Eurasia Enne Zahard.

Dowon is scared of war but wants jahad removed which is a huge paradox. She feels like her hope is also her fear and she would rather be under oppressive rule than freedom which is weird because there is no freedom without sacrifices. Basically she's hoping jahad would just step-down peacefully which is nonsensical and that just won't happen.

 

[lyl]

I'd say killing Bam is not going to change anything

Jahad is still a tyrant and fug are still trying to kill him killing Bam may delay the war but it won't end it

She should realize that sooner or later

 

[somnolent]

Choo choo.

Nice touch.

Baam will do as he's meant to do whether her vacillating ass likes it or not.

It's not what she'll choose I'm interested in, but what she's choosing between. Dowon had already decided murdering one innocent life was worth it for the lives she'd save from war. She didn't even introduce herself before she tried to kill Baam. The Captain got her to realise V's Child and Zahard's Killer are one person, then she vacillates.

The Dilemma is between: trying to stop Zahard's killer, the war he'll lead and the countless lives that will claim or following V's Child and... accomplishing what exactly? If he's not killing Zahard, what's he supposed to do? It's clearly separate from Arlene's Prophecy, but that's all we know.

Dowon asked her sister to wake her when V's Child returned to the Tower. We know that wipes Khane's memories, so it wasn't a casual request. Whatever he's "meant to do" in Dowon's mind, it's significant enough that it can be weighed against a sister, a Tower-spanning war and countless lives.

I think Dowon knows what V intended for Baam and the vision he had for the Tower.

Dowon is scared of war but wants jahad removed which is a huge paradox.

Was it ever actually said Dowon wanted Zahard removed or did you just assume that? I just thought Dowon was trying to resist Zahard's dominion over her country. You don't have to kill a king to halt an invasion.

She feels like her hope is also her fear and she would rather be under oppressive rule than freedom which is weird because there is no freedom without sacrifices.

Dowon: The reason I keep fighting like this because I don't want my people to fall into the hands of King Jahad. [...] If they fall, I won't have any reason to go on fighting.
Dowon fought to protect her country's independence until Zahard offered her people a choice: submission to his rule at a price or complete extermination. They decided their lives were more important than their freedom and agreed to seal her away. She seems to have taken that lesson to heart.

Basically she's hoping jahad would just step-down peacefully which is nonsensical and that just won't happen.

Where did you get that from? See below for my answer. No sense repeating myself.

I'd say killing Bam is not going to change anything
Jahad is still a tyrant and fug are still trying to kill him killing Bam may delay the war but it won't end it
She should realize that sooner or later

Dowon: "You people think this whole tragedy will just go away if Jahad dies?

She's resigned to Zahard ruling the Tower, and against the monumental loss of life it would take to change that. Plenty of oppressive regimes exist because the human cost of toppling them is too high. SIU lives next door to one.

 

[Zahard's Prophet]

She's obviously going to end up joining Baam's entourage shortly, unless SIU feels the need to protract this whole idea of her vacillating while she reconciles precisely what somnolent mentions in his post above: that V's son is the Thorn that will cut the King's throat. Hopefully he doesn't, because it's pretty boring to draw out something with such a foregone conclusion unless there's some plan to upset what we obviously see coming.

I am interested in what she can share with Baam about his past, however.

 

[King Dryst]

I think Dowon knows what V intended for Baam and the vision he had for the Tower.

I wonder if she knows what V's wife intended for Baam? That's the vision I'm more interested in.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

I'm not sure we have to question what she's thinking as her internal dialogue has been shown. She, like everyone else, has to see with her own eyes what Baam is capable of before throwing her weight behind him. Until then she thinks he'll just cause continued war because she thinks, IMO, that Zahard is unstoppable... like everyone else.

 

[Siya101]

Was it ever actually said Dowon wanted Zahard removed or did you just assume that? I just thought Dowon was trying to resist Zahard's dominion over her country. You don't have to kill a king to halt an invasion

The reason i assume she wants jahad out is because she talks of jahad as a tragedy to the inhabitants of the tower when talking to sowo. Also she was ultimately waiting for someone to kill jahad but she assumed the one to kill jahad and spark a war were different people. She would have sided with the great mans child to remove jahad if she never knew they'd start a war - which is kinda a clue to her intentions concerning jahad. She wants him removed with little to know war

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

I mean Zahard:

- caused the death of her father and countrymen, who fought against Zahard
- threatened her entire kingdom/blackmailed Dowon
- forced her to be fucking imprisoned for thousands of years (hopefully it was over in an instance as far as what she observed)
- ripped her from her romantic interest in doing so
- created a situation where her martyrdom wasn't even appreciated - while alive or sealed
- created a scenario that kept her sister a victim of the event with her mind scrambled, then having her countrymen turn against her for supporting Dowon
- killed a baby, ruled the tower/floor like an iron-fisted asshole

I'm going to go out on a limb and say she wanted Zahard out. I thought that was kind of obvious with her joining a group allied with FUG and killing a GF DD while fighting against others.

I don't think that's an unreasonable assumption.

It just seems she thinks supporting Baam (at this point) continues the bloodshed as she isn't (yet) convinced he can consolidate power, kill Zahard, and bring peace and prosperity to the tower with minimal death. She's doing the path of least resistance, devil you know, Tousen from Bleach (similar to Kallavan in a way) thing - for now.

 

[somnolent]

First post is edited to make it easier to read.

I'm not sure we have to question what she's thinking as her internal dialogue has been shown. She, like everyone else, has to see with her own eyes what Baam is capable of before throwing her weight behind him. Until then she thinks he'll just cause continued war because she thinks, IMO, that Zahard is unstoppable... like everyone else.

Dowon definitely believes Baam has the potential to kill Zahard down the line.

Spoiler: Here's why.

This is how she greets Baam for the first time, right before she attacks him.
"The Thorn that will Slit the King's Throat. A lot of people are going to die because of that boy."

This strikes me as a paraphrase of something Garam recited from Arlene's Journal: "That child shall use the red thorn to cut the throat of the greedy king." It has a storyteller's flair, but the content is the same.

After Baam blocks that attack, Dowon confirms what she heard from the Wangnan-lookalike.
[to Baam] "You look like your still a regular. How did you manage to neutralise my Flower Control Shinsu Skill? You've got some very special power."
That man [The Boss] was right. There's no telling what will happen with this boy's power in the future.

She believes what the Boss had told her to be true, that Baam will "slit the King's Throat".

I'm going to go out on a limb and say she wanted Zahard out. I thought that was kind of obvious with her joining a group allied with FUG and killing a GF DD while fighting against others.

I don't think that's an unreasonable assumption.

I think Dowon has a mountain of reasons to want Zahard extremely dead or at least removed. Her overriding concern though is the human cost. Any attempt to kill or overthrow Zahard will take far too many lives for Dowon to support it and I don't think that's a recent change either.

Dowon: The reason I keep fighting like this because I don't want my people to fall into the hands of King Jahad. [...] If they fall, I won't have any reason to go on fighting.

As I said before, resisting an invader and overthrowing/murdering him in his own empire are two very different things. Both require fighting and killing the enemy, but one is defensive and the other is aggressive. What Dowon wanted was for her kingdom to remain independent of Zahard's Empire. That proved impossible.

I think Dowon is resigned to Zahard's rule because she feels any war to change that will inevitably take countless lives and cause myriad tragedies.

Spoiler: Dowon Quotes

She doesn't think killing Zahard is a solution.
"You people think this whole tragedy will just go away if Jahad dies?"

She stresses the number of deaths repeatedly.
Dowon [about what the Boss told her:] "I knew. If that boy appears in the Tower [...] it'll bring about some massive changes to the Tower [...] and a lot of people will die in the process."

I mean, if White could accrue a billion souls from two kingdoms he created on the same floor, how many people are there in an Empire spanning 134 Floors? Imagine the collateral from a battle between High Rankers in a city district.

I get why most readers don't accept this as a valid reason. Fictional lives are cheap. Blowing up a planet has less impact than a mentor's death. This is her primary motivation, though.

Dowon is very anti-war.
Dowon [to Cha] "Don't you get it?! I'm trying to stop the war right here right now!"
Dowon [to Cha] "Don't you move Cha! Stay where you are! Even for you, I won't forgive you if you add any more fuel to this war!"

This isn't going to end well.

Dowon sees Zahard as an enemy, yet she compares his war to conquer the Tower with "Baam's war" to kill the king.
[to Sowo]"That's right. Jahad is the enemy of my father and our kingdom. To us, at least, he was a tragedy for this Tower, but not for everyone. Besides, if another war starts [...] that boy will be a tragedy for someone else too."

I don't think Dowon's making a value judgement, though. There are no good wars in her eyes. War is war. Innocents die. If killing one boy will prevent that, she seems to have made peace with being a murderer. At least until she finds out Baam is the Great Man's Child.

Assumptions are fine, I just wanted to see if I'd missed something.

She's obviously going to end up joining Baam's entourage shortly

The imprisoned Hidden Grove members and Khun Hynd Luch complicate things. Probably not until those are resolved.

I wonder if she knows what V's wife intended for Baam? That's the vision I'm more interested in.

Dowon knows parts of Arlene's prophecy from the Boss, but either there were gaps in his knowledge or he omitted certain details to manipulate her.

I'm pretty sure the Boss owned Arlene's Pocket at some point. It would explain a lot of what he knows. Also Levy & Yool's spells, if he's the Captain.

Also she was ultimately waiting for someone to kill jahad but she assumed the one to kill jahad and spark a war were different people.

You don't think she would've connected the two figures together if both of them were supposed to kill the king?

I think Dowon knows a different destiny for V's Child.

 

[Dutchy]

The reason i assume she wants jahad out is because she talks of jahad as a tragedy to the inhabitants of the tower when talking to sowo. Also she was ultimately waiting for someone to kill jahad but she assumed the one to kill jahad and spark a war were different people.

It was Gustang's actions that prompted Jahad to wage war, so it's not accurate to say Baam started it.

Dowon's initial assumption may have been right, now that Ja Wangnan has what is likely the power of an irregular, he might be the other child of prophecy.

 

[lyl]

I think Dowon knows a different destiny for V's Child.

What would that destiny be though.
With the whole "monster" thing that Rachel was talking about it may end up with more death.

 

[Siya101]

I think Dowon knows a different destiny for V's Child

What other destiny is there besides killing jahad. The 'great man' waged war with jahad and his child is destined to end the war with his bear hands.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 26, 2020, Original Post Date: Mar 26, 2020 ---

It was Gustang's actions that prompted Jahad to wage war, so it's not accurate to say Baam started it.

But gustang started the war because of whose appearance though...? This whole thing of fug acting weirdly, gustang deciding to jahad now of all times means something. Someone is doing something to people that he isnt aware about - baam.

 

[Dutchy]

What would that destiny be though.
With the whole "monster" thing that Rachel was talking about it may end up with more death.

The God Guardians has hinted that Baam and Jahad once shared the same ideals, so it's possible he'll be worse than Jahad, but then so does Ja Wangnan.

 

[somnolent]

The 'great man' waged war with jahad and his child is destined to end the war with his bear hands.

Dowon greeted Baam as "the Thorn Who'll Slit the King's Throat", then tried to kill him.

Whatever Dowon's heard from FUG about the Great Man's Child, it does not include killing Zahard. She would've put two and two together.

That's why I started the thread! Something doesn't add up.

What would that destiny be though.
With the whole "monster" thing that Rachel was talking about it may end up with more death.

What other destiny is there besides killing jahad.

Don't know for certain, but I have a theory.

Spoiler: V's Original Plan for Baam and His Destiny

The prophecy FUG kept in the Age of Genesis (and the one Dowon knows) is: the Child returning to bring about V's vision for the Tower. It's what V wanted his son to do before Zahard cut that destiny short by killing him.

Dowon says "Remember what our Master said before? There are people who have escaped from the Tower since the Tower's been around. There are stories of a Great Man and Woman...and the story how FUG was created."
I always wondered where V was when Zahard murdered his son. I think he was looking for an exit to the Tower.

FUG seemed surprised Baam was as weak as he was when he arrived. Sending a untrained boy into the Tower can't have been the plan. Had they escaped together, they would've both mentored their son. V's Child would've returned to the Tower with his powers fully developed like Enryu and Urek.

As for what V actually wanted Baam to do?

Spoiler: My Best Guess

The Son of V & Arlene would've known the way in and the way out. Reassembling the key and challenging 135th Floor (and beyond) or showing the Tower-born the way out of the Tower would've both been possible. They could've climbed or left, as they pleased.

Zahard wants to rule the Tower and everything in it, but he can't pass the 135th Floor Test. If he can't, no one can. Leaving the Tower means rejecting his rule. Can't have that either. Hence why Arlene calls him the "The Greedy King."

V's Child would've offered what Zahard cannot. The freedom to leave and the power to advance. So Zahard killed him while he was still a baby.

This is a pretty modest guess all things considered. V could've planned to unite the Tower floors into a new world for all we know. Who knows what's possible at the top?

...and I'm pretty sure I know why the destiny Dowon recalls and Arlene's Prophecy don't match.

Spoiler: Why and when FUG changed from hero to villain

V and Arlene fled after Zahard and the Ten Warrior's triumphed over them, but Arlene was already expecting. FUG were the disciples who stayed behind to continue the fight. They had high hopes for the unborn child, but they'd lost contact with V & Arlene. That's why they keep using "Great Man's Child," FUG didn't know if it was a boy or a girl.

In the Age of Genesis, FUG is waiting for V's Child to return.

Sometime after Dowon is sealed, FUG learns the Child was murdered by Zahard, Arlene went mad from grief and V gave into despair. That's when FUG shifts from resistance to terrorist organisation and Zahard's death becomes their reason for being.

Spoiler: The Timeline Adds Up

Arlene's Prophecy wasn't written until just before she left the Tower. It's in the last entry in her diary. "I have finally found a way to get out of this place," is the first line Garam reads to Baam before she gets to the prophecy.

It took Arlene a very long time to find an exit to the Tower, according to Garam (who's over 5000 according to the wiki).

Luslec and FUG are much older than Arlene's Prophecy. FUG has it's origins in V's War with Zahard, and Luslec goes back even further. He climbed the Tower with the Great Warriors.

There must have been a gap between FUG's founding and them finding out Zahard killed the Child. Possibly millennia. That would explain why FUG doesn't seem as obsessed with Zahard's death in Dowon's Time as it is now.

Arlene's Prophecy could've taken thousands of years to reach FUG. Arlene's Pocket can't have been widely known about or Zahard would've starting looking for it. Arlene remained alone after V's death, so who knows how long it was hidden away until someone picked it up.

I think the Boss had Arlene's Pocket in the Age of Genesis. Everything the Boss says: the child who starts the war, "massive changes" and "the Thorn who'll Slit the King's Throat" mirrors Arlene's Prophecy.

Enryu didn't deliver the Thorn until after Zahard went into hibernation. And we know Khel Hellam fought Zahard after Dowon was sealed. So, the Thorn hadn't arrived in Dowon's Time.