Discussion Arlene Grace Thread

[Arjuna]

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I noticed that Arlene lacks a thread of her own so i created one.Discuss everything related to her here.Do you think will we ever see her again?

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[Jammin]

Wow, I guess your right. I looked and I guess we don't. Good catch juna.

I think we'll see her again quite a bit more in flashbacks as the series progresses. Though I sort of doubt we'll ever see her in person because I believe she found some way to die and "escaped the tower" that way.

 

[Arjuna]

Wow, I guess your right. I looked and I guess we don't. Good catch juna.

I think we'll see her again quite a bit more in flashbacks as the series progresses. Though I sort of doubt we'll ever see her in person because I believe she found some way to die and "escaped the tower" that way.

Maybe she will see her so before finally dying, declaring to him that she really loved him.

 

[Jammin]

Maybe she will see her so before finally dying, declaring to him that she really loved him.

It could happen. My wadger is more on SIU doing something extra tragic though.

 

[Wha]

because I believe she found some way to die and "escaped the tower" that way.

How do you mean that? Like waking up from the Matrix or did i get that wrong?


I am still not sure if it doesn't turn out that she actually started to loathe Bam, or what he has become. Remember when we first heard about her? After the Bam & Garam talk, the scene switches to team Rachel and Rachel thinks something like "i don't care what Bam is to you, Arlene. The one of the prophecy has to be me". I found it strange, because of the way she said it. Does she not know that Bam is her son?

When she meets Bam, after the hidden floor, she tells him that Arlene called him a monster.

What if this is true? What if she thought of him as a mere tool to get her revenge? Or after bringing him back she realised that it isn't the "same person" anymore?

 

[Jammin]

How do you mean that? Like waking up from the Matrix or did i get that wrong?


I am still not sure if it doesn't turn out that she actually started to loathe Bam, or what he has become. Remember when we first heard about her? After the Bam & Garam talk, the scene switches to team Rachel and Rachel thinks something like "i don't care what Bam is to you, Arlene. The one of the prophecy has to be me". I found it strange, because of the way she said it. Does she not know that Bam is her son?

When she meets Bam, after the hidden floor, she tells him that Arlene called him a monster.

What if this is true? What if she thought of him as a mere tool to get her revenge? Or after bringing him back she realised that it isn't the "same person" anymore?

No, I meant to suggest she literally found a way to die.

That's pretty much what I guess to be the case. I think she came pretty well unglued at the end. And essentially used her son's body to bring something into the tower she hoped would destroy it.

I also think that V may have done something terrible that caused this whole situation. Like try to turn their kid into a weapon against Zahard when he realized he couldn't win his war. Zahard finds out and destroys the "weapon" because he has to. Arlen goes insane. V kills himself because of what he'd done. Which just makes it worse for Arlen. Then she used her abilities to contact something outside the tower and found a way to kill herself with it's help. Then brought it into the tower in Baam's body but the process turned into a new being... Baam. I think Rachel knows all of this.

I fully admit everything above is a guess though. Not based on much more than what I think could be true and explain various things.

 

[TheLastMartian]

No, I meant to suggest she literally found a way to die.

That's pretty much what I guess to be the case. I think she came pretty well unglued at the end. And essentially used her son's body to bring something into the tower she hoped would destroy it.

I also think that V may have done something terrible that caused this whole situation. Like try to turn their kid into a weapon against Zahard when he realized he couldn't win his war. Zahard finds out and destroys the "weapon" because he has to. Arlen goes insane. V kills himself because of what he'd done. Which just makes it worse for Arlen. Then she used her abilities to constant something outside the tower and found a way to kill herself with it's help. Then brought it into the tower in Baam's body but the process turned into a new being... Baam. I think Rachel knows all of this.

I fully admit everything above is a guess though. Not based on much more than what I think could be true and explain various things.

Well she is only immortal in the tower so if she got out she doesn't need anyone's help to die.

 

[Jammin]

Well she is only immortal in the tower so if she got out she doesn't need anyone's help to die.

Yeah but getting out of the tower tends to be a lot harder than dying. Urek has a whole faction built around trying to figure out how to do it and they have yet to succeed.

 

[toil]

The more we see the more I think we're going to have a lot of relatives in the original great warrior crew: I'd bet strongly on V and Zahard being brothers, I'd bet at least something on Lo Po Bia and Po Bidau Gustang being brothers, and...I'd bet on Arlene and Yeon being sisters. Maybe cousins not siblings, point is: relatives.

I tend to agree with Wha that when we do find out how Arlene feels about Baam it won't be pretty: maybe hate, maybe something even more bizarre.

I also really wonder if Rachel isn't, like, an Arlene/Zahard rape baby. Hear me out on this one.

Picture a twisted situation: V sacrifices himself to buy either Arlene's or Baam's exit from the tower. "One soul, one ticket", something like that. Arlene reacts by going nuts, Zahard finds her, kills Baam, and then (speculatively) rapes her. If magic can preserve Baam's body magic can freeze her pregnancy, so she does, and wanders around like that until she finds the exit. When she gets to the exit she's unable to pass through because she needs two tickets—dead Baam doesn't count, but nascent-Rachel does—and it's a hard choice: kill the baby and leave with Baam, or kill herself and send the baby on through.

Well it'd be a hard choice for most people, but Arlene's not most people: "you mean I can...finally die? Heck yeah!". There also has to be a side deal of sorts, like "I'll revive your son and send him through, but only if he becomes a host for this outside god and returns to the tower (blah blah)". Another hard decision for a normal mother but, again, we're talking about Arlene here.

Shifting the camera to outside the tower, one day out pops two babies—one dead, one not—together with some kind note, and maybe a "care package" of some kind (Arlene mementos? useful items?). Note says "outside god will revive this dead baby, and he will return to the tower; please just seal him away in this cave (for privacy? magic reasons? who knows)". Also says "this other baby is just an ordinary girl, please take care of her for me". Given how much Rachel kinda-sorta knows about the tower there must be more info in the note, but you catch the drift.

So then Rachel is raised as an orphan, knows a fair amount about "Arlene, the tower, and all that", and begrudges Baam for his destiny: she hates her dull life in the crappy underground cave into which Arlene delivered her, more than anything she wants to escape and go into the tower, and...that's why she talks about being "reborn" all the way back in the beginning. Maybe she interacted with Baam secretly and got in trouble when she got caught, maybe the villagers were superstitious and tasked her with dealing with the spooky dead baby—details we'll find out, eventually.

Speculation for now, but it's a scenario I can see for Arlene, Baam, Rachel, the cave, and so on. The more I've turned it over the more

I am still not sure if it doesn't turn out that she actually started to loathe Bam, or what he has become. Remember when we first heard about her? After the Bam & Garam talk, the scene switches to team Rachel and Rachel thinks something like "i don't care what Bam is to you, Arlene. The one of the prophecy has to be me". I found it strange, because of the way she said it. Does she not know that Bam is her son?

It's details like this, the wanting to be reborn, etc., that have me increasingly thinking like I just sketched.

 

[TheLastMartian]

Yeah but getting out of the tower tends to be a lot harder than dying. Urek has a whole faction built around trying to figure out how to do it and they have yet to succeed.

It's been shown that Urek is not very smart, Arlene on the other hand is a genius sorceress and is implied to have known magic before entering the tower. For all we know she has a spell that just whisked her home by tapping her shoes together 3 times.

 

[Wha]

No, I meant to suggest she literally found a way to die.

But if she found a way to die, how did she found a way to escape the tower afterwards?

That's pretty much what I guess to be the case. I think she came pretty well unglued at the end. And essentially used her son's body to bring something into the tower she hoped would destroy it.

I also think that V may have done something terrible that caused this whole situation. Like try to turn their kid into a weapon against Zahard when he realized he couldn't win his war. Zahard finds out and destroys the "weapon" because he has to. Arlen goes insane. V kills himself because of what he'd done. Which just makes it worse for Arlen. Then she used her abilities to constant something outside the tower and found a way to kill herself with it's help. Then brought it into the tower in Baam's body but the process turned into a new being... Baam. I think Rachel knows all of this.

I fully admit everything above is a guess though. Not based on much more than what I think could be true and explain various things.

You could be right. But, like i said, as of right now i am not sure about the V part. As far as Rachel knowing a lot, i agree.
Ah ok, you meant she found a way on the outside to kill herself? I am not sure if contracts work on the outside.

Edit: Just got it, sorry. You meant she tried to get to the outside to kill herself? That could be part of it, but i am not sure if she wanted to kill herself anymore (at this point in time).
Judging her by her prophecy, her hatred towards Zahard was great and her desire for revenge even greater. Wouldn't she want to witness it with her own eyes? Unless she couldn't, for some reason. Or she was killed. Or maybe her life was part of the deal - as Bam grew stronger, she grew weaker (or something like that).

 

[Jammin]

But if she found a way to die, how did she found a way to escape the tower afterwards?



You could be right. But, like i said, as of right now i am not sure about the V part. As far as Rachel knowing a lot, i agree.
Ah ok, you meant she found a way on the outside to kill herself? I am not sure if contracts work on the outside.

Edit: Just got it, sorry. You meant she tried to get to the outside to kill herself? That could be part of it, but i am not sure if she wanted to kill herself anymore (at this point in time).
Judging her by her prophecy, her hatred towards Zahard was great and her desire for revenge even greater. Wouldn't she want to witness it with her own eyes? Unless she couldn't, for some reason. Or she was killed. Or maybe her life was part of the deal - as Bam grew stronger, she grew weaker (or something like that).

No I'm saying she never got outside of the tower really. Instead it was more of a "death is the only escape" kind of thing.


.

 

[Wha]

No I'm saying she never got outside of the tower really. Instead it was more of a "death is the only escape" kind of thing.

So you think that Rachel & Bam were never outside the tower as well? So you don't have to come from the "outside outside" to be considered an irregular? Interesting thought.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

The more we see the more I think we're going to have a lot of relatives in the original great warrior crew: I'd bet strongly on V and Zahard being brothers, I'd bet at least something on Lo Po Bia and Po Bidau Gustang being brothers, and...I'd bet on Arlene and Yeon being sisters. Maybe cousins not siblings, point is: relatives.

I tend to agree with Wha that when we do find out how Arlene feels about Baam it won't be pretty: maybe hate, maybe something even more bizarre.

I also really wonder if Rachel isn't, like, an Arlene/Zahard rape baby. Hear me out on this one.

Picture a twisted situation: V sacrifices himself to buy either Arlene's or Baam's exit from the tower. "One soul, one ticket", something like that. Arlene reacts by going nuts, Zahard finds her, kills Baam, and then (speculatively) rapes her. If magic can preserve Baam's body magic can freeze her pregnancy, so she does, and wanders around like that until she finds the exit. When she gets to the exit she's unable to pass through because she needs two tickets—dead Baam doesn't count, but nascent-Rachel does—and it's a hard choice: kill the baby and leave with Baam, or kill herself and send the baby on through.

Well it'd be a hard choice for most people, but Arlene's not most people: "you mean I can...finally die? Heck yeah!". There also has to be a side deal of sorts, like "I'll revive your son and send him through, but only if he becomes a host for this outside god and returns to the tower (blah blah)". Another hard decision for a normal mother but, again, we're talking about Arlene here.

Shifting the camera to outside the tower, one day out pops two babies—one dead, one not—together with some kind note, and maybe a "care package" of some kind (Arlene mementos? useful items?). Note says "outside god will revive this dead baby, and he will return to the tower; please just seal him away in this cave (for privacy? magic reasons? who knows)". Also says "this other baby is just an ordinary girl, please take care of her for me". Given how much Rachel kinda-sorta knows about the tower there must be more info in the note, but you catch the drift.

So then Rachel is raised as an orphan, knows a fair amount about "Arlene, the tower, and all that", and begrudges Baam for his destiny: she hates her dull life in the crappy underground cave into which Arlene delivered her, more than anything she wants to escape and go into the tower, and...that's why she talks about being "reborn" all the way back in the beginning. Maybe she interacted with Baam secretly and got in trouble when she got caught, maybe the villagers were superstitious and tasked her with dealing with the spooky dead baby—details we'll find out, eventually.

Speculation for now, but it's a scenario I can see for Arlene, Baam, Rachel, the cave, and so on. The more I've turned it over the more



It's details like this, the wanting to be reborn, etc., that have me increasingly thinking like I just sketched.

I don't think it's just a coincidence Rachel looks like she COULD be Zahard's baby. Though I'd wonder why she sucks soooooo badly if she has his gene pool to at least pull halfway from.

As for V and Z being brothers. Interesting. Personally, I think they were just rivals and pretty close in power.

Though brothers is possible. Maybe his name is really Vahard. Lol @ everyone expecting Viole.

And neither has a last/family name. So SIU could be keeping their relationship a secret by not giving it away with full names.

I'm suggesting Zahard and Vahard Brown. Something completely ubiquitous and inane.

From the author that brought you Baylord Paul, Tall/Grande/Venti, Mule, etc.

 

[Jammin]

So you think that Rachel & Bam were never outside the tower as well? So you don't have to come from the "outside outside" to be considered an irregular? Interesting thought.

I'm not sure. It's a hole in my theory for sure.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

I'm not sure. It's a hole in my theory for sure.

Not necessarily. If she died she 'got out'. As for the baby, he was already dead. Just inert material that Arlen convinced Headon to put in the outgoing tower mail. Not like living beings who are marshalled as to whether they can enter or leave.

You don't necessarily see where your sacrifice goes if it is made to a higher power. Arlen didn't have to accompany the dead babe to still have sacrificed him by/via sending him out to whatever 'god' exists outside. That could have given her time to still write in her pocket what she was going to do with the body.

How else would she have been able to document in a pocket INSIDE the tower while discussing events, after the fact, that would occur OUTSIDE the tower (sacrificing Baam to the outside being and so on).

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 12, 2019, Original Post Date: Nov 12, 2019 ---

I just checked and this is interesting. Supposedly, she writes in her journal that AS SHE WAS LEAVING THIS PLACE... and goes on to talk about her plans to offer up Baam to the outside god.

OK. So how are the mechanics of that exactly? She stands in a doorway, scribbling in her diary? Then chucks it to Headon to plant somewhere? How did she know that an outside god even exists, or to sacrifice Baam to it, or what would happen from inside the tower having not been out to meet him? How did she document what was going to happen in the outside unknown while still inside the tower?

It gets odder. Arlen doesn't even know where she's going. It's just 'outside' the tower. Yet she COMES from outside the tower. So she's not going out the same way she came in, nor is she going to end up in the same place she was in before entering. She doesn't even know where she'll end up or what it will be like. Just that there's no Zahard or admin wherever this is.

Added all up, it sounds more and more like something someone would be writing figuratively on their death bed before taking a pill cocktail rather than literal exposition of her leaving the tower in a physical manner.

She wanted 'a way out' - a common euphemism for SUICIDE. Something we know undoubtedly she sought to accomplish. Maybe she just finally found a way to kill herself for good.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 12, 2019 ---

Oh, and as for Rachel, she could have received the same treatment as Baam. (as a dead body sent out by Arlen)

She implies that she never has even seen the stars - but wants to for Arlen.

Soooo, why can't Arlen be seeing the stars HERSELF if she's out and alive? And if Rachel hasn't seen the stars before, how can she have ever been outside the tower in any meaningful way? She obviously was outside to be able to come in, but she seemed to be in some sort of purgatory, holding area of sorts. The bowels of the tower? The lobby?

A handmaiden for Arlen inside the tower (that died) to a helper for raising Baam (the chosen one she has disdain for) on the outside.

Spitballin'

 

[toil]

I don't think it's just a coincidence Rachel looks like she COULD be Zahard's baby. Though I'd wonder why she sucks soooooo badly if she has his gene pool to at least pull halfway from.

If there's an answer, it's probably related to why Baam is so different from e.g. Urek: something about Baam (and presumably) Rachel has them "starting at zero" in a way different from other known irregulars. This overlaps with our previous conversation about irregulars, Enne, and the likelihood there's some currently-unknown nuance to the status.

As for V and Z being brothers. Interesting. Personally, I think they were just rivals and pretty close in power.

It's a common theory, b/c it lets the "Prince of Zahard" turn out to be about both Baam and Wangnan (for different reasons). Yeon supposedly has an unrequited love, etc., her being stuck on Zahard or V could work (has to be someone plot relevant you’d think). Yihwa looks a lot like what little we’ve seen of Arlene, so much so I half expect a “isn’t that Yihwa” gag when we get a clear view of her face (statue wasn’t clear).

It gets odder. Arlen doesn't even know where she's going. It's just 'outside' the tower. Yet she COMES from outside the tower. So she's not going out the same way she came in, nor is she going to end up in the same place she was in before entering. She doesn't even know where she'll end up or what it will be like. Just that there's no Zahard or admin wherever this is.

I really think the hidden floor arc has the clues we need, but we don't have enough of them to figure it out clearly. The thing with Ha Yura, Ha Yura's mother, Hwang, and her brother seem like it'll be the story of Rachel, Baam, Arlene, and the outside god, just not clear how. The thing with there being the hell train, the hidden floor, and the hidden hidden floor seems like it'll be analogous to Baam's cave, the tower, and the "real world" from which Urek and the great warriors hail. Rachel got routed to the hidden hidden floor because she really “belongs” in that other “real world”, not Baam’s cave.

You see what I mean. For now all we can do is guess—we have clues, I think, but not enough of them.

 

[Jubei_Kibagami]

Of course it will be clear in hindsight. SIU will be saying essentially 'I already told you guys!'

 

[toil]

Of course it will be clear in hindsight. SIU will be saying essentially 'I already told you guys!'

Oh, for sure, I'm just saying I think specifically that that arc seems to be where he dumped a lot of this big-picture foreshadowing.

So here's a thought: what happens when an unstoppable force meets an unmovable object can Zahard kill the other immortality-contract family heads?

It has interesting implications either way, but particularly for Arlene.

 

[Echizen_Akira]

If Arlene did die, rather than escape it would bring up some questions about Enryu. Though it could give credence to Jubei's "V is Enryu" theory.